Discover what our online hitting video analysis training program can do for your baseball or softball hitters. Learn about how we model the most feared MLB swings of the modern era.
In this post, we go over:
This post started when I entered into a discussion with a gentleman on YouTube that asked me, “Who is your swing model?”
And I feel this is an outstanding question. Leading me to the success you experience is directly related to the quality of questions you ask. And, we must note that success leaves clues. So, if we ask better questions, then the answer to what swing to model will bubble to the top. And let me be clear, I don’t care if people disagree with me.
Quite the contrary. However, ‘willful ignorance’ among coaches debating which swing to model is a pandemic online, and most of the time, misguided – or unguided – thinking is the driver. The standard of measure hitting criteria I routinely read online is, “I only study elite hitters” (said in the most condescending tone you can imagine).
WTFudge does that mean!!!?
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Define your criteria please. That statement is too subjective to be useful to ANYONE. I think this explains why so many confused online people online say, “You can’t teach hitters a cookie cutter system because every hitters is different.” This individual DOES NOT have a clue as to how human movement principles work…or that there are such things!!
Here’s a clue…ALL explosive human movements originate from a set of working principles that cannot be broken (as long as you’re on earth).
Whether you’re a hitter, pitcher, Hammer Thrower, Olympic Diver, or Acrobat.
Otherwise, we’re all just taking a stab in the dark at what we personally feel is a good swing. Picking out a good swing isn’t like what US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said about pornography in 1964, “I know it when I see it.”
Again, success leaves clues. There’s a recipe for optimal swing movement, and if you choose to be willfully ignorant about that fact, then consider this…
…quote by Atlas Shrugged author Ayn Rand (and thanks Bob Hall for sharing):
“You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.”
To further drive this point home…
I wanted to share a quote from a book I’m currently reading called, “Bad Science: Quacks, Hacks, and Big Pharma Flacks, by Ben Goldacre
“I meet individuals who are eager to share their views on science despite the fact that they have never done an experiment. They have never tested an idea for themselves, using their own hands, or seen the results of that test, using their own eyes, and they have never thought carefully about what those results mean for the idea they are testing, using their own brain. To these people “science” is a monolith, a mystery, and an authority, rather than a method.”
Asking the ‘WHY’ is important, but a coach can still be misguided.
Here’s what I mean…
I had a Facebook reader tell me they modeled Miguel Cabrera’s closed landing foot because, as he somehow reasoned, is why Miggy gets outstanding plate coverage.
Wa??!
He also went on to name Barry Bonds, Tony Gwynn, and Pete Rose also landing closed and that’s why they had outstanding plate coverage.
Argument looks believable, right?
It’s a straw man argument though – let me tell you why…
This is a classic case of correlation not equalling causation.
Meaning, this reader believed a closed landing front foot EQUALS outstanding plate coverage…it’s misguided thinking. Looks good on paper, but doesn’t work on the battlefield.
I’d actually argue the opposite.
And don’t get me wrong, Miguel Cabrera is one of my favorite big slugger swing models, but as you’ve already heard me say, !!!BE CAREFUL!!! because bigger hitters tend to succeed despite ineffective mechanics, NOT because of them.
Landing closed WILL:
Landing closed is definitely an inferior mechanic, and is not how my handful of 12 and under hitters, weighing around 100-lbs, are frequently hitting the ball the length of a football field, in games.
The fact Barry Bonds, Tony Gwynn, and Pete Rose landed closed is irrelevant to the plate coverage argument.
Again, it’s misguided thinking.
The bottom line is this,
…these hitters did A LOT of other things effectively that DID enable them better plate coverage.
But I can tell you, after looking at the research, testing this stuff out on myself, and on my hitters, landing with a closed front foot DOES NOT empower a hitter with better plate coverage.
What did Ayn Rand say about the consequences of avoiding reality? 😛 lol
So, what is the Gold Standard Criteria I use to define an elite level swing?
You don’t need to have 5/5, but at least 3/5:
Why smaller sluggers?
Because they MUST be highly effective to compete with the bigger sluggers because they have less to work with.
You Little League coaches can agree with me on this one…
Think about how much of a power advantage a 6-foot hitter has on the Little League diamond? Can I get an Amen on that?!
What’s more…
There are smaller sluggers that made my list that hit more home-runs, have higher average Ball Exit Speeds, and have higher average home-run distances than some of the high level big sluggers!!
So, what hitters do I suggest a coach model? Here is a non-exhaustive list:
These are not in any particular order, and not all are without blemish. Hitters of yesteryear tend to be cleaner with their swing movements, but I wanted to give examples you could look up on YouTube in slow-mo.
My favorite swing model of all these is Sadaharu Oh, who hit 868 dingers over a 22-year span standing in at a mere 5’10”, and weighing 173-pounds (CLICK HERE for a post I did on him).
And by the way, I’m not against the big sluggers, I love and often cite the following swings with my hitters:
However, any of this doesn’t do any bit of good if we don’t have a grasp of human movement principles first, before analyzing. This is methods without principles, and you’ll surely be misguided.
I use the analogy that human movement principles are like bumpers at the bowling alley. The path the ball takes down the lane, between the bumpers, MUST not concern us (the ‘path’ down the lane is what’s unique to a hitter). Just that the ball stays between them, and positive predictable results will come.
This is WHY we need a better standard of measure when choosing a swing model, not just saying “I know a good swing when I see one”.
Joey
Do you have any video of your students (12 and under, 100 lbs.) hitting a ball 300ft either in a game of practice? I would love to see it. My son is 16 yrs. old, 6’1″ and 150lbs and has seemed to max out currently at 350′. When he was 12 and 100lbs, probably 250′ was his max. I don’t disagree your students can do this, I would just like to see the video to show my son.
Great post, work with players all the time that have coaches telling them they need to keep front foot closed so they don’t pull off the ball or so they can hit the outside pitch. I had one kid come in that high school coach was teaching him to stay pigeon toed with both feet. I just told the kid step towards the pitcher and land in your most comfortable position with your foot, it doesn’t matter opened, closed, halfway just land in position of comfort. He stepped and consistently landed about 45-60 degrees open. I told him do the same thing and hit a few balls off the tee. Absolutely destroyed 5 in a row, same results in front toss and when I threw him some BP. Crushing the ball middle third of the field. His dad sends me a text from his next game, kid’s first AB hits one off the 360 sign in left center, kid hadn’t hit a ball 200 feet with front foot closed were dad’s comments. The thing any hitter, coach, instructor or parent needs to understand is that it isn’t cookie cutter, but there are certain body movements and positions that every hitter needs to get to at the correct time of the pitch to have consistent, repeatable and most explosive results. Its the use of gravity, unweighting, ground force, and maximizing those elements with the height, weight, strength and flexibility any hitter has to create their best swing. Keep putting information out there, I tell those that I work with to visit your site along with other sites to show that I am not the only one out there teaching these methods. Thanks
By far…. Hank Arron and the Mick!!!! Im assuming part of the rant is on me… I don’t mean to make a thousand comments… My bad!!! I’m just getting a bunch of my observations out… Hopefully you found some of them useful… You did mention how I should test some out for myself with a sensor and a radar gun as you do… I did buy all of it and the Thomas Myers book but still just don’t have the time to put it all together…Ill try my best not to comment like crazy…but believe me I’m looking for a discussion with some brainstorming and feedback… Which by the way has not really happened Joey….
Another observation… I’m assuming…which we shouldn’t do (assume) is that pro players that land closed and don’t coil too far away from the plate since they will hurt there vision… there pros and they see fine…So for sake of discussion, it would seem like perhaps it’s a matter of posture… Something that could be a reaction to landing closed or natural… Sort off…So they are not fully upright at standing ( standing correctly as one can mask bad posture) meaning there is some flexion (perhaps) that is being missed and we add the fact that these players seem to do more of a throwing (linear) action… Players who land closed seem to throw more…Which makes sense as they are less rotary since they lost a little flexion in their system do to their posture…but losing a little isn’t losing it all…there’s a difference and as noted most of these players are bigger…remember linear goes to rotational and rotational goes to linear in a weird way…we discussed that way back…so my observation is they lose the flexion (I.e., a little lumber perhaps) which makes that transfer to the tspine less.. Lumbar is flexion and the tspine is rotary…
So if this observation holds than they don’t need those few degrees of freedom as in an open landing… In fact since they are not transferring correctly they are better off to cut the landing angle short in order to harness there power more effectively…I would be interested in seeing the results on inside pitches…Obviously I Believe there is a rotary and linear part of the swing ( well many of both) which is dictated by the location of the pitch… Meaning the amount of angle on the landing depends on the pitch location not a “Per Se” thing… So 65 degrees is thrown out there which is a good “rule of thumb” but not an absolute…said another way… If your more linear, the rotary part goes along for the ride and vice versa…That’s the adjustment which is reflexive…Meaning the limbs do what they do… But there is a hold and push part… While the pull gets taken for the ride and knowing how to let that happen is key…
So said another way, if you are a linear person, one will have those absolutes, if your a rotary person, one will have those absolutes… But where are the adjustments! If your a rotary and linear person, then the absolutes are that there’s an adjustment and the pitch dictates that ratio if I can say that between the two approaches which includes where you land… That is why I talked about big circle little circle way back…And the landing is a reaction to an approach not a thought… So if ones posture is bad than you miss that part (what the bad posture affects)… So if all things are equal, especially posture than it IS one size fits all… But people have different postures which affects reflexes and power… And you add in all the nonsensical cues one ingrained in ones head than yea… It’s not a cookie cutter approach but that’s because you have to unwind all the bad… Meaning… The teachings is a one size fits all but it’s the undoing which is person specific also with the fact people learn differently…So the hardest part of the swing is undoing the wrong because the wrong effects approach which effects instincts and movements which effects posture which effects reflexes and power…so muscle memory is not for doing something but for trying NOT to do something… Changing muscle memory is not looking at what Arron or the Muck is doing… It’s understanding what there doing right ( I.e., look to Joey) and undoing the effect of doing it wrong ( I.e., look to Joey and a book authored by Thomas Myers)…
Well here I go again… But for me the landing is about approach and if your thinking or trained your foot to land somewhere when your about to do an explosive human movement than there’s bigger issues…Be ausem it’s a no teach or a LET it fall since that is the outcome of something the batter already did…By the way… Finsh your swing and hold than wind up… Any thoughts Joey?
And yea, Hank and the Mick would be my two…and I don’t like looking at big players but Bonds by far has one of the best swings ever… At the end of his career he figured it out…but he’s a prick!!! But that doesn’t change his swing…
~DM
Joey, I’m NOT a fan of Rand but her quote is excellent… Your notice of all the sports with similar human movements has always been by far the best in the business…If you don’t mind me adding something we discussed before… Hitting a baseball has the timing or hitting a moving object part missing from most of the others… As such, is it fair to ask if hitting the ball the farest is the objective…making solid contact… Etc…Can we do the same or is there adjustments between the two… Should our approach be to make contact first if there’s a difference…Is good contact the best way to hit farest or is the best swing in view of physics the best way….Does the placement of the ball affect our swing for contact or power… If the physics teaches us that this approach gives us the best distance … Does the math tell us it’s the best probability… How does your anatomy produce what the physics and/or the math teaches us…does anatomy teach us there are multiple ways of moving the same body part… If so… That’s way too complicated! can we just see ball and hit ball….
Said another way, does the best human movement give us the best probabilities to hitting a moving object when the pitcher is trying to get the batter off balanced… Or does the best human movement already take that into consideration? Do we look at multiple disciplines (besides human movements) for the answers? Does the best human movements take care of all of it…Why are so many against science? Why do people ask questions like what is the power hand? Do we stride or no stride? Etc…..
And comments like ” if you fail 7 out if 10 times” your an allstar… What does that mean…
What if you had 5 at bats… And swong 13 times… And stroke out 3 times, while missing or fouling 11 times and had 2 nice line drives for hits… Your batting 400! But your contact average would be 154….Does that shed light on the difficulty of making good contact…or does that shed light on good pitching or the fact that many pitchers know your weakness…
If true, why do you have a weakness… If you have the swing how can you have a weakness… Is the weakness not your swing but your approach… Is the swing and approach one in the same or can we separate them…What adjustments are you not making… Can you make adjustments based on the fact kids hit with metal bats and pros don’t like pitching inside…
Questions? Why don’t people ask more questions… And why do people not look to experts in these fields? Why do people believe people are born to hit or throw?
If you don’t have the answers, do you continue to do what you do or do you ask the questions , test things or at least get your thoughts out there for others to observe… Just whatever you do don’t spin the wheel if the results are not there and ask the questions make observations …
And please…like Joey is saying…Stop with the he’s a science person, baseball person, I played pro, I’ve studied this or that, I feel this and that… It’s a discussion until one makes it something different…not a discussion. We are all ignorant, just about different things! And it’s not a debate!!!!
Later Joey
~DM
Larry, thanks for your observations. Here are two videos of Manny Ramirez on YouTube (w/ Boston: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPbaAVEHdHE landing open, and w/ Rays: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMnbluvjFYE landing closed, then ‘popping’ open). Btw, the latter video was after Manny had been popped for PED use, twice I believe). Is “Kenny” Ken Griffey Jr.? Here’s YouTube video of him landing open: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0moFbeC-EA about 45-degrees open with front foot. Griffey Jr. was a beast of a man, and Manny was definitely a smaller slugger. Griffey got away with an early arm bar until halfway through his career, then he never recovered…be it constant injury, or this ineffective mechanic lagging him behind the competition, it’s hard to know for sure.
Larry, I’m not sure whether you’re playing devil’s advocate here or you truly believe landing closed enhances a swing, but the science, experimentation, and results I get with my own swing and my hitters is pretty convincing it’s an ineffective mechanic. The bigger sluggers get away with it is my point, and that a closed landing foot DOES NOT equal great plate coverage.
On Chris Welch, as far as I know, he wasn’t a baseball player. He’s a biomechanical specialist. By the way, watch any Major Leaguer take 50-70% swings off the tee and you’ll see bug squishing with the back foot, but once they get up to game speed swings, bug squishing goes away. This is what gets coaches in trouble in teaching kids to squish the bug, they see a Big Leaguer like Albert Pujols do it during 50% speed BP, and they say, “See! Albert squishes the bug, so I’m going to teach that to all my hitters!” That’s like watching Usain Bolt taking a warmup lap at 50% speed, and say “See! Bolt’s knees don’t get very high, so I’m going to teach my sprinters to keep their knees down!”
I don’t agree with A LOT of most instructors, even Perry Husband promoting an early arm bar, but that doesn’t mean I don’t like his EV system.
And lastly, did you watch Chris’s video I recommended in the post? It was his research of pro v. amateur hitters I’m interested in, not whether he can repeat a high level swing. I don’t even have a high level swing!!!
Again, my point is prove to me with science, experimentation, and/or LIVE case studies that landing closed with the stride foot is better, and I’ll listen otherwise I think you’re just playing devil’s advocate. Also check out Dwight Malloy comment…
Mike, I totally understand…AND I do!! It’s hard enough for parents to capture a homer on video, but even more of a unicorn is capturing a 300-foot shot:
Here’s the text message I received from this hitter’s father (who played baseball at D-1 Chico State in the late 90’s), to give this video context:
“This is Orin hitting the farthest ball he’s ever hit. It landed a couple feet short of the warning track in Manteca, which is right around 300-feet away”.
Notice the result was a “double”, and not a home-run, because of the deeper fences that Orin’s dad mentioned in the text message.
I hope this helps!
Larry
Joey,
You might have inadvertently overlooked two more closed front foot hitters that come to mind and their names are Kenny and Manny. Could there be another reason why many of the ” elite hitters”land with their front foot closed that you have not considered?
You also referenced Chris Welch from Zepp and although I am not familiar with him, ( he sounds like a scientist) his techniques and demos show some pretty nice bug squishing (spinning ) and some serious pushing of the back arm plus extending his lead arm well before contact in fine linear fashion.Should your readers be questioning the relavance of his demos?
Larry