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WHY We Need A Better Standard Of Measure…

Sadaharu Oh Batting Stance

This is Sadaharu Oh, who is the Japanese career home run king, belting 868 jacks over the course of his 22-year career, at a height of 5’10”, and weighing 173-pounds.

(I apologize that this post became a rant, but DEFINITELY worth the read.  Please allow about 8.5 minutes of time)

In this post, we go over:

  • 7 reasons WHY we need a better standard of measure,
  • Who are you modeling? And WHY? And,
  • 5 gold standard criteria keys for a high level swing…

This post started when I entered into a discussion with a gentleman on YouTube that asked me, “Who is your swing model?”

And I feel this is an outstanding question.

Leading me to…

The success you experience is directly related to the quality of questions you ask.

And, we must note that success leaves clues.

So, if we ask better questions,

…then the answer to what swing to model will bubble to the top.

And let me be clear, I don’t care if people disagree with me.

Quite the contrary.

However, ‘willful ignorance’ among coaches debating which swing to model is a pandemic online, and most of the time, misguided – or unguided – thinking is the driver.

The standard of measure hitting criteria I routinely read online is, “I only study elite hitters” (said in the most condescending tone you can imagine).

WTFudge does that mean!!!?

Define your criteria please.  That statement is too subjective to be useful to ANYONE.

I think this explains why so many confused online people online say, “You can’t teach hitters a cookie cutter system because every hitters is different.”

This individual DOES NOT have a clue as to how human movement principles work…or that there are such things!!

Here’s a clue…ALL explosive human movements originate from a set of working principles that cannot be broken (as long as you’re on earth).

Whether you’re a hitter, pitcher, Hammer Thrower, Olympic Diver, or Acrobat.Ayn Rand Avoiding Reality Quote

Otherwise, we’re all just taking a stab in the dark at what we personally feel is a good swing.  Picking out a good swing isn’t like what US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said about pornography in 1964, “I know it when I see it.”

Again, success leaves clues.

There’s a recipe for optimal swing movement, and if you choose to be willfully ignorant about that fact, then consider this…

…quote by Atlas Shrugged author Ayn Rand (and thanks Bob Hall for sharing):

“You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.”

To further drive this point home…

I wanted to share a quote from a book I’m currently reading called, “Bad Science: Quacks, Hacks, and Big Pharma Flacks, by Ben Goldacre

“I meet individuals who are eager to share their views on science despite the fact that they have never done an experiment.  They have never tested an idea for themselves, using their own hands, or seen the results of that test, using their own eyes, and they have never thought carefully about what those results mean for the idea they are testing, using their own brain.  To these people “science” is a monolith, a mystery, and an authority, rather than a method.”

 

7 Reasons WHY We NEED a Better Standard of Measure with Hitting…

Zepp Baseball Sensor

I use the Zepp app and sensor to do swing experiments pitting one mechanic against another.

  1. Information Overload – where does one start their quest for hitting truth when everyone and their mother has a YouTube channel?  In other words, how do we cut through the white noise?
  2. Playing Experience Fallacy – do we listen to the ex-professional hitter because he/she played at a higher level?  Let me give you a clue...“Doing a thing and understanding a thing do not automatically qualify you to teach a thing.” – Dan Farnsworth
  3. OCD Analysis Fallacy – do we listen to the Obsessive Compulsive humanoid who studies ‘only the most elite hitters’ for 25 hours a day, everyday?  Here’s another clue…it depends on who they’re studying because guess what, some elite hitters succeed despite ineffective mechanics, NOT because of them.
  4. The 30+ Year Coach Fallacy – do we listen to the coach who makes it known they have over 30 years of coaching experience? Here’s even another clue…most likely this coach has the same year of coaching experience, repeated 29+ years.
  5. Willful Ignorance – Old thought patterns die hard. Getting into it with these people is just mental masterbation.  Take it from me, take scissors and cut your loses.  Nobody will ever change their mind.  They’re bitter human beings who feel the need to gain significance from heated confrontation, and might I say, putting people and their ideas down – despite reality staring them in the face! (revisit Ayn Rand ‘avoiding reality’ quote above)
  6. Upsetting the Church of Baseball/Softball – Debating the swing DOES NOT have to resemble discussing politics and religion.  I mentioned this already.
  7. The Sweet Spot – nowadays there’s so much quality information, easy expert access, and new technology that it makes cutting through the white noise so much easier.  We just need a better standard of measure.

Who are YOU Modeling? And  WHY?

Andrew McCutchen Hitting

Here’s Andrew McCutchen, who according to Baseball-Reference.com, has a 162-game average: .294 BA, 37 2B’s, 24 HR’s, .873 OPS, & 140 OPS+ all at 5’10”, 190-pounds.

Asking the ‘WHY’ is important, but a coach can still be misguided.

Here’s what I mean…

I had a Facebook reader tell me they modeled Miguel Cabrera’s closed landing foot because, as he somehow reasoned, is why Miggy gets outstanding plate coverage.

Wa??!

He also went on to name Barry Bonds, Tony Gwynn, and Pete Rose also landing closed and that’s why they had outstanding plate coverage.

Argument looks believable, right?

It’s a straw man argument though – let me tell you why…

This is a classic case of correlation not equalling causation.

Meaning, this reader believed a closed landing front foot EQUALS outstanding plate coverage…it’s misguided thinking.  Looks good on paper, but doesn’t work on the battlefield.

I’d actually argue the opposite.

And don’t get me wrong, Miguel Cabrera is one of my favorite big slugger swing models, but as you’ve already heard me say, !!!BE CAREFUL!!! because bigger hitters tend to succeed despite ineffective mechanics, NOT because of them.

Landing closed WILL:

  • Inhibit the turn of the pelvis (CLICK HERE for this Zepp swing experiment),
  • Make hitters more susceptible to fastballs inside and high in the strike zone,
  • NOT be what a majority of professional hitters even do (CLICK HERE where Chris Welch at ZenoLink explains his research in this), and
  • NOT maximize a hitters springy fascia (CLICK HERE for this post).

Landing closed is definitely an inferior mechanic, and is not how my handful of 12 and under hitters, weighing around 100-lbs, are frequently hitting the ball the length of a football field, in games.

The fact Barry Bonds, Tony Gwynn, and Pete Rose landed closed is irrelevant to the plate coverage argument.

Again, it’s misguided thinking.

The bottom line is this,

…these hitters did A LOT of other things effectively that DID enable them better plate coverage.

But I can tell you, after looking at the research, testing this stuff out on myself, and on my hitters, landing with a closed front foot DOES NOT empower a hitter with better plate coverage.

What did Ayn Rand say about the consequences of avoiding reality? 😛 lol

So, what is the Gold Standard Criteria I use to define an elite level swing?

 

5 Gold Standard Criteria Keys for a High Level Swing

You don’t need to have 5/5, but at least 3/5:

  1. Smaller sluggers NO bigger than 6-foot tall, and weighing NO more than 215-pounds,
  2. Hits for both power AND average,
  3. Above average in key Metrics like: OPS, OPS+, HR/FB ratio, Line Drive%, Ball Exit Speed, Attack Angles, etc.,
  4. Minimal, if zero, injuries caused by the swing over career (in other words, the swing MUST be safe for the hitter – thank you Lee Comeaux for this one),
  5. Understanding that big sluggers may succeed with ineffective mechanics, NOT because of them.

Why smaller sluggers?

Because they MUST be highly effective to compete with the bigger sluggers because they have less to work with.

You Little League coaches can agree with me on this one…

Think about how much of a power advantage a 6-foot hitter has on the Little League diamond?  Can I get an Amen on that?!

What’s more…

There are smaller sluggers that made my list that hit more home-runs, have higher average Ball Exit Speeds, and have higher average home-run distances than some of the high level big sluggers!!

So, what hitters do I suggest a coach model?  Here is a non-exhaustive list:

Dustin Pedroia Hitting

Here’s Dustin Pedroia, who according to Baseball-Reference.com, has a 162-game average: .299 BA, 44 2B’s, 15 HR’s, .809 OPS, & 115 OPS+ all at 5’9″, 175-pounds. Mandatory Credit: Rick Osentoski-USA TODAY Sports

These are not in any particular order, and not all are without blemish.  Hitters of yesteryear tend to be cleaner with their swing movements, but I wanted to give examples you could look up on YouTube in slow-mo.

My favorite swing model of all these is Sadaharu Oh, who hit 868 dingers over a 22-year span standing in at a mere 5’10”, and weighing 173-pounds (CLICK HERE for a post I did on him).

And by the way, I’m not against the big sluggers, I love and often cite the following swings with my hitters:

However, any of this doesn’t do any bit of good if we don’t have a grasp of human movement principles first, before analyzing.  This is methods without principles, and you’ll surely be misguided.

Principles are Few: Ralph Waldo Emerson quote

I use the analogy that human movement principles are like bumpers at the bowling alley. The path the ball takes down the lane, between the bumpers, MUST not concern us (the ‘path’ down the lane is what’s unique to a hitter).  Just that the ball stays between them, and positive predictable results will come.

This is WHY we need a better standard of measure when choosing a swing model, not just saying “I know a good swing when I see one”.

Joey Myers
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43 replies
  1. Larry
    Larry says:

    Joey,
    You might have inadvertently overlooked two more closed front foot hitters that come to mind and their names are Kenny and Manny. Could there be another reason why many of the ” elite hitters”land with their front foot closed that you have not considered?
    You also referenced Chris Welch from Zepp and although I am not familiar with him, ( he sounds like a scientist) his techniques and demos show some pretty nice bug squishing (spinning ) and some serious pushing of the back arm plus extending his lead arm well before contact in fine linear fashion.Should your readers be questioning the relavance of his demos?
    Larry

    Reply
    • Joey Myers
      Joey Myers says:

      Larry, thanks for your observations. Here are two videos of Manny Ramirez on YouTube (w/ Boston: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPbaAVEHdHE landing open, and w/ Rays: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMnbluvjFYE landing closed, then ‘popping’ open). Btw, the latter video was after Manny had been popped for PED use, twice I believe). Is “Kenny” Ken Griffey Jr.? Here’s YouTube video of him landing open: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0moFbeC-EA about 45-degrees open with front foot. Griffey Jr. was a beast of a man, and Manny was definitely a smaller slugger. Griffey got away with an early arm bar until halfway through his career, then he never recovered…be it constant injury, or this ineffective mechanic lagging him behind the competition, it’s hard to know for sure.

      Larry, I’m not sure whether you’re playing devil’s advocate here or you truly believe landing closed enhances a swing, but the science, experimentation, and results I get with my own swing and my hitters is pretty convincing it’s an ineffective mechanic. The bigger sluggers get away with it is my point, and that a closed landing foot DOES NOT equal great plate coverage.

      On Chris Welch, as far as I know, he wasn’t a baseball player. He’s a biomechanical specialist. By the way, watch any Major Leaguer take 50-70% swings off the tee and you’ll see bug squishing with the back foot, but once they get up to game speed swings, bug squishing goes away. This is what gets coaches in trouble in teaching kids to squish the bug, they see a Big Leaguer like Albert Pujols do it during 50% speed BP, and they say, “See! Albert squishes the bug, so I’m going to teach that to all my hitters!” That’s like watching Usain Bolt taking a warmup lap at 50% speed, and say “See! Bolt’s knees don’t get very high, so I’m going to teach my sprinters to keep their knees down!”

      I don’t agree with A LOT of most instructors, even Perry Husband promoting an early arm bar, but that doesn’t mean I don’t like his EV system.

      And lastly, did you watch Chris’s video I recommended in the post? It was his research of pro v. amateur hitters I’m interested in, not whether he can repeat a high level swing. I don’t even have a high level swing!!!

      Again, my point is prove to me with science, experimentation, and/or LIVE case studies that landing closed with the stride foot is better, and I’ll listen otherwise I think you’re just playing devil’s advocate. Also check out Dwight Malloy comment…

      Reply
  2. Mike
    Mike says:

    Joey
    Do you have any video of your students (12 and under, 100 lbs.) hitting a ball 300ft either in a game of practice? I would love to see it. My son is 16 yrs. old, 6’1″ and 150lbs and has seemed to max out currently at 350′. When he was 12 and 100lbs, probably 250′ was his max. I don’t disagree your students can do this, I would just like to see the video to show my son.

    Reply
    • Joey Myers
      Joey Myers says:

      Mike, I totally understand…AND I do!! It’s hard enough for parents to capture a homer on video, but even more of a unicorn is capturing a 300-foot shot:

      Here’s the text message I received from this hitter’s father (who played baseball at D-1 Chico State in the late 90’s), to give this video context:

      “This is Orin hitting the farthest ball he’s ever hit. It landed a couple feet short of the warning track in Manteca, which is right around 300-feet away”.

      Notice the result was a “double”, and not a home-run, because of the deeper fences that Orin’s dad mentioned in the text message.

      I hope this helps!

      Reply
  3. Dwight Malloy
    Dwight Malloy says:

    Great post, work with players all the time that have coaches telling them they need to keep front foot closed so they don’t pull off the ball or so they can hit the outside pitch. I had one kid come in that high school coach was teaching him to stay pigeon toed with both feet. I just told the kid step towards the pitcher and land in your most comfortable position with your foot, it doesn’t matter opened, closed, halfway just land in position of comfort. He stepped and consistently landed about 45-60 degrees open. I told him do the same thing and hit a few balls off the tee. Absolutely destroyed 5 in a row, same results in front toss and when I threw him some BP. Crushing the ball middle third of the field. His dad sends me a text from his next game, kid’s first AB hits one off the 360 sign in left center, kid hadn’t hit a ball 200 feet with front foot closed were dad’s comments. The thing any hitter, coach, instructor or parent needs to understand is that it isn’t cookie cutter, but there are certain body movements and positions that every hitter needs to get to at the correct time of the pitch to have consistent, repeatable and most explosive results. Its the use of gravity, unweighting, ground force, and maximizing those elements with the height, weight, strength and flexibility any hitter has to create their best swing. Keep putting information out there, I tell those that I work with to visit your site along with other sites to show that I am not the only one out there teaching these methods. Thanks

    Reply
    • Joey Myers
      Joey Myers says:

      Thanks for sharing such a revealing LIVE case study Dwight! A lot of misguided thinking out there. Thanks for the kind words, and keep up the good work brother 😀

      Reply
  4. Djura
    Djura says:

    By far…. Hank Arron and the Mick!!!! Im assuming part of the rant is on me… I don’t mean to make a thousand comments… My bad!!! I’m just getting a bunch of my observations out… Hopefully you found some of them useful… You did mention how I should test some out for myself with a sensor and a radar gun as you do… I did buy all of it and the Thomas Myers book but still just don’t have the time to put it all together…Ill try my best not to comment like crazy…but believe me I’m looking for a discussion with some brainstorming and feedback… Which by the way has not really happened Joey….

    Another observation… I’m assuming…which we shouldn’t do (assume) is that pro players that land closed and don’t coil too far away from the plate since they will hurt there vision… there pros and they see fine…So for sake of discussion, it would seem like perhaps it’s a matter of posture… Something that could be a reaction to landing closed or natural… Sort off…So they are not fully upright at standing ( standing correctly as one can mask bad posture) meaning there is some flexion (perhaps) that is being missed and we add the fact that these players seem to do more of a throwing (linear) action… Players who land closed seem to throw more…Which makes sense as they are less rotary since they lost a little flexion in their system do to their posture…but losing a little isn’t losing it all…there’s a difference and as noted most of these players are bigger…remember linear goes to rotational and rotational goes to linear in a weird way…we discussed that way back…so my observation is they lose the flexion (I.e., a little lumber perhaps) which makes that transfer to the tspine less.. Lumbar is flexion and the tspine is rotary…

    So if this observation holds than they don’t need those few degrees of freedom as in an open landing… In fact since they are not transferring correctly they are better off to cut the landing angle short in order to harness there power more effectively…I would be interested in seeing the results on inside pitches…Obviously I Believe there is a rotary and linear part of the swing ( well many of both) which is dictated by the location of the pitch… Meaning the amount of angle on the landing depends on the pitch location not a “Per Se” thing… So 65 degrees is thrown out there which is a good “rule of thumb” but not an absolute…said another way… If your more linear, the rotary part goes along for the ride and vice versa…That’s the adjustment which is reflexive…Meaning the limbs do what they do… But there is a hold and push part… While the pull gets taken for the ride and knowing how to let that happen is key…

    So said another way, if you are a linear person, one will have those absolutes, if your a rotary person, one will have those absolutes… But where are the adjustments! If your a rotary and linear person, then the absolutes are that there’s an adjustment and the pitch dictates that ratio if I can say that between the two approaches which includes where you land… That is why I talked about big circle little circle way back…And the landing is a reaction to an approach not a thought… So if ones posture is bad than you miss that part (what the bad posture affects)… So if all things are equal, especially posture than it IS one size fits all… But people have different postures which affects reflexes and power… And you add in all the nonsensical cues one ingrained in ones head than yea… It’s not a cookie cutter approach but that’s because you have to unwind all the bad… Meaning… The teachings is a one size fits all but it’s the undoing which is person specific also with the fact people learn differently…So the hardest part of the swing is undoing the wrong because the wrong effects approach which effects instincts and movements which effects posture which effects reflexes and power…so muscle memory is not for doing something but for trying NOT to do something… Changing muscle memory is not looking at what Arron or the Muck is doing… It’s understanding what there doing right ( I.e., look to Joey) and undoing the effect of doing it wrong ( I.e., look to Joey and a book authored by Thomas Myers)…

    Well here I go again… But for me the landing is about approach and if your thinking or trained your foot to land somewhere when your about to do an explosive human movement than there’s bigger issues…Be ausem it’s a no teach or a LET it fall since that is the outcome of something the batter already did…By the way… Finsh your swing and hold than wind up… Any thoughts Joey?

    And yea, Hank and the Mick would be my two…and I don’t like looking at big players but Bonds by far has one of the best swings ever… At the end of his career he figured it out…but he’s a prick!!! But that doesn’t change his swing…

    ~DM

    Reply
    • Joey Myers
      Joey Myers says:

      Great comments once again Djura, and no this post wasn’t totally shot in your direction. Please don’t take offense. It’s common issue with coaches that comment on my stuff. The problem with landing closed is teaching hitters to do it on all pitches and locations. I bet we’d see MLB hitters landing a little more closed on outside homers/doubles than on inside. I think a lot of it is instinctual, but again, coaches tend to coach instinct out of hitters. Also, I read your comments, but right now, time doesn’t permit me to take the time to reply to all of them, sorry about that.

      Reply
  5. Djura
    Djura says:

    Joey, I’m NOT a fan of Rand but her quote is excellent… Your notice of all the sports with similar human movements has always been by far the best in the business…If you don’t mind me adding something we discussed before… Hitting a baseball has the timing or hitting a moving object part missing from most of the others… As such, is it fair to ask if hitting the ball the farest is the objective…making solid contact… Etc…Can we do the same or is there adjustments between the two… Should our approach be to make contact first if there’s a difference…Is good contact the best way to hit farest or is the best swing in view of physics the best way….Does the placement of the ball affect our swing for contact or power… If the physics teaches us that this approach gives us the best distance … Does the math tell us it’s the best probability… How does your anatomy produce what the physics and/or the math teaches us…does anatomy teach us there are multiple ways of moving the same body part… If so… That’s way too complicated! can we just see ball and hit ball….

    Said another way, does the best human movement give us the best probabilities to hitting a moving object when the pitcher is trying to get the batter off balanced… Or does the best human movement already take that into consideration? Do we look at multiple disciplines (besides human movements) for the answers? Does the best human movements take care of all of it…Why are so many against science? Why do people ask questions like what is the power hand? Do we stride or no stride? Etc…..

    And comments like ” if you fail 7 out if 10 times” your an allstar… What does that mean…

    What if you had 5 at bats… And swong 13 times… And stroke out 3 times, while missing or fouling 11 times and had 2 nice line drives for hits… Your batting 400! But your contact average would be 154….Does that shed light on the difficulty of making good contact…or does that shed light on good pitching or the fact that many pitchers know your weakness…

    If true, why do you have a weakness… If you have the swing how can you have a weakness… Is the weakness not your swing but your approach… Is the swing and approach one in the same or can we separate them…What adjustments are you not making… Can you make adjustments based on the fact kids hit with metal bats and pros don’t like pitching inside…

    Questions? Why don’t people ask more questions… And why do people not look to experts in these fields? Why do people believe people are born to hit or throw?

    If you don’t have the answers, do you continue to do what you do or do you ask the questions , test things or at least get your thoughts out there for others to observe… Just whatever you do don’t spin the wheel if the results are not there and ask the questions make observations …

    And please…like Joey is saying…Stop with the he’s a science person, baseball person, I played pro, I’ve studied this or that, I feel this and that… It’s a discussion until one makes it something different…not a discussion. We are all ignorant, just about different things! And it’s not a debate!!!!

    Later Joey

    ~DM

    Reply
  6. Djura
    Djura says:

    Thanks Joey!!! I know I say way too much and I know for some some times discussions may seem like a debate… As you know I apreciate all you do and believe me I can sleep, breath and focus better and you indiectly led me to the disciples that lead me down that road… There’s another observation…. Or question… Can breathing help with power and/or stance???? I know you most likely know the answer to that much better than I do…
    Ok… I just erased a bunch of stuff… I apparently can stop myself…?

    I know I say so many things but believe me I’m trying to have a discussion so I hope everything I say is framed in that light… Thanks again Joey….

    Keep doing what your doing!!!!

    ~DM

    Reply
  7. Djura
    Djura says:

    Yea… I totally agree with you like usually….almost always ?…. As you know I’m done with looking at the fascia lines and I think all of them are in play in some way… What I found interesting is your reflexes are tied into your posture…. Now if considering posture … That opens doors many baseball personal might not want to open…there all kinds of things that define your posture…. Most important, at least to what I think, being mindful of your posture in everyday activities, injuries, stretching, working out, sitting, repeated movements without counter balancing or rebalancing, I hate the term unwinding as that has weird ideas that don’t hold true… But posture affects your reflexes… You have good posture and work your fascia… You’ll feel young and have good reflexes… So doing the same thing as 12 year old with different posture as a 38 treat old is not doing the same thing since your posture changed so has your reflexes…My question is first do you see where I’m going and if so… How is it possibly that if you see this that you can’t figure that the baseball swing is so damn complicated…just because you hit a ball doesn’t mean you should teach it… I think it’s the whole… He’s a natural or she’s born to hit that affects people more than we think…

    So for example, Larry made notice of people landing close…and never explained why they do it or the benefits of doing it… I would first ask, where was the ball in that clip…

    You never said landing close means you’ll never make it or you’ll only hit 100 feet… And Larry points to pros that do it… So… Seriously so.. Should we point to hitters and say… Hah… These hitters land open and its 3-2… We win… Winning is adding to the discussion… What did you add Larry… Like Joey said… Are you playing devils advocate? Or are you interested in what Joey and others have to say… Or are you pointing to something without understanding and thinking that just by pointing it proves it… Because both open and close can be found thoughtout the MLB….explaining it works much better in my book…so please educate me and explain it as I feel the foot is a LET action from the correct approach which lands from the close to the open position depending on the location of the ball… And I totally agree with you Joey that hard hit balls, on the outside part of the plate will have more of a closed landing… And for good reasons… Again I didn’t say completely closed nor did I explain a stance set up or an approach to a particular pitcher or anticipated pitch… Or my flexibility or posture… Etc..etc…

    I think Miggie from Detroit said it best… Once he was answering questions about his stance and approach and was trying to explain how he changes his stance during an at bat… Different counts, different anticipation… Etc…For a plurality of reasons… Than while explaining it… He couldn’t put in in words and actually said…after a noticeable frustration… I don’t know but I just think about it and hit the ball… There are a hundred things to think about but mechanics was not one because knows what to do and how to adjust once he guess on his approach… Now if you understand the adjustments I would love to learn more… If your clueless to what I’m saying and was pointing to somebody as evidence… Please look at Joeys videos as they are free and believe me hitting is extremely complicated… So complicated that what most professionals think they see or feel is really the opposite… I’ve been trying to get Joey to experiment with a left hand pinch that I know is big time but I still haven’t had feedback… Joey… Believe me… Lead hand pinch is soooooo big time…. Just look at the hand as thumb, pinkie and forefinger and make a triangle and make another triangle at your foot…Although learning that your reflexes are affected by your posture was interesting… Myers book… Also… Our breathing exhaling and inhaling had real impact on our posture… Myers as well…shoot I can quote a hundred things Myers said… Joey… Seriously… The pinch… Or starting the swing with the lead hand… That’s the rotary part that is big time… Watch Arron carefully…. Start swinging a bat back and forth and start learning the lead hand do it.. Take the top hand for the ride and aim with the pinch… It might feel weird but seriously try it… By the way that a drill to get what I’m saying… Than and only than you see the adjustments as I do….alright I’m out for awhile… Later…

    ~DM

    Reply
  8. Djura
    Djura says:

    Alright… Last thing… Just doing the pinch with the left should make the swing feel really short… Doing the pinch with the right should make the swing feel really long… Think big circle little circle… Now think about what I mean by adjustments and what did you mean by hitting outside balls that the batter may be more closed… It’s all about the grey area which means it’s both… Both.. I hope you see where I’m coming from… And Joey I don’t have to set an experiment… It’s like the background in the picture that you never seen but once you see it… It’s hard to see it another way… The cues are so damaging… The slightest terms or misguided advice, although meant well, is damaging… Try the pinch right before you skip your rock… Just tell me what you can do with it… They can’t get you inside and skip the rock on outside pitches… And figure out what you want to do with the ball down the plate as those are easily hit with both… Don’t let one of them be absolute but 60-40…75-25 even 85-15… But 100-0 should be only on pitches that you are completely fooled on…

    Seriously Joey… BIG TIME…. You know I know the science… I’m an engineer… I know the math and physics… I know the fascia.. So it’s not about that… I knew about the lead hand pinch and all that did was reaffirm my thoughts… I’ve hit both ways because I’m saying that the pitch makes you do it and that the swing is an adjustment and ratio of both… I use the lead ( more) for down the plate and inside and I use the pinch on the top hand (more) for outside…by the way why would somebody think it’s top and the bottom is just along for the ride… Or vice versa… I’m saying its both… For height… Well those are different observations for another day…Joey if you know what you know… Than you know many things are the opposite of what we see… Lead the swing with your lead hand by the pinch…funny…lead the swing with the lead hand… Sounds good to me…just let your top ride… As You noted… The hand and fingers will tighten… But concentrate the direction with the lead… It will give you the lateral tilt and control of the back knee… You have to cup the bat with the left hand and tuck the thumb away… So the bat is diagonally across the bottom hand… So the forefinger and the thumb are free to do its thing if trained… Seriously once you get it… It feels like your just turning your body into it… It feels like your hitting the ball with your body…it is what it is… And to me… It’s it!!!

    But you have to cup your hand… Shoot over cup the lead hand if that helps get the feel…And by the way I would not go against feel… What we see… Yes… But feel… Feel is key… If your balanced and your reflexes are working well…

    Seriously Joey… Some comments would be nice… Questions… Ideas… Anything… It kind of feels like nobody has heard my observations before…that seems unreasonable but I still hold true to what I see…. And what I see is the picture in the back… Man do I have a lot more observations but those would be guesses or educational guess as I’ve hit balls and know the science…but this pinch thing… It’s golden… I don’t bet but if I did I would put the house on it…

    The hardest is to cup the left hand in order to control the body with your lead hand while leveraging the bat and ground… You should have good posture… Naturally or setting it with your shoulders in order to have good reflexes and to use your core correctly… I think???? Than walk… Yes walk… Leading with your public bone and bottom 3… Yes your bottom 3…than pinch just before your lead foot gets grounded… Yes… It’s best to start prior to landing as if you let it happen your lateral tilt makes your hands go back… Yes the pinch makes your hands appear to go back… But you see what you want to see as they are unwinding from the load or furthest backswing or load…alright I’m done as this is complicated… Hey look at Harper and just do what he does… By the way Larry I can bring my back elbow up using 10 different muscles while making the movement look exactly the same… If I did it 10 different ways which would be the one that you point too… Put your arm out and hand out… Use your Pinkie to rotate your hand, than your forefinger…. Than your deep Palm… If you did it correctly… You rotarted your hand in 3 different ways but your hand rotates the same way… Now multiple that by all your movements… First if there are multiple ways of moving a body part than seeing it move is not good enough… And if that becomes a multipler… Than try multiplying that among all your movements…. That’s the puzzle we are trying to figure out…it’s really complicated…. Alright I did it again.. Seriously… A comment or question wound be appreciated…

    ~DM

    Reply
  9. Djura
    Djura says:

    Joey…. To make it easier…. Look at Hank Aaron’s hands… You asked for my grip and I told you we have different postures… Your hands and feet give up your posture… They tell a story or says another way… I’m sure some people pick up a bat and there batting posture is in there hands and it’s an afterthought… Meaning there’s real good reasons and this being one of them that some can’t explain there magic… Arron’s hands to me is not what it is… There are stresses, tensions, pulls and pushes etc… That you don’t see unless you know what your looking for… His hands are no where where you like yours… Remember the three points… Pinkie, forefinger and thumb…the thumb is by the wrist…. Just think of those points as what they are doing… For example… Grip, pulling, pushing, holding, twisting, setting, turning… They all do something different… They are set… I can put any amount of force I want… It will take off on a moment notice….however you have to have it connected correctly…so don’t think for a second each point is applying A force in the same direction….the most important part is setting the hands in auto and just letting your bottom 3…. For sake of a term… Go!!!! And the pinch… Well starts it with a ” right there”…. Alright I’ll be out for awhile… I hope you see what I’m saying… Because you seemed to have everything except this… Who knows maybe I’m wrong ?

    When looking at the points… Remember on arm rotates and the other folds… And most importantly they are fighting each other and you can control it… Like pushing your hands against each other… You can leave the pressure and dictate direction while still having them fight and can let go and have one take off…

    Good luck… If you have questions… Go for it… It’s really hard to explain… In a comment…

    ~DM

    Reply
  10. Djura
    Djura says:

    Shoot.. Make fist and move those points in differing directions and just see where you posture takes it… You will feeling stronger at some angles and weaker at others… Look at Arron’s hands and start with that and try to move the points in differing directions while keeping Aaron’s grip… Remember we can move the same part with different muscles, fascia, nerves…. Blah. Blah… Blah… You get it… Later…

    Reply
  11. Joe
    Joe says:

    DJURA,

    Aaron’s grip caused him to hook the ball with his top hand. That and his lunging motion, with his stride and upper body, had him falling over the plate, which also caused his back leg to swing to the side like a hockey player.

    I think that Joey’s contention that a hitter’s swing should conform th human movement science is something that all hitters should seek to do. Not all hitters are like Aaron, who could do things incorrect and still compensate for it.

    Reply
  12. Djura
    Djura says:

    Joe… Excellent point on Aaron seemingly hooking many pitches… I’m not sure I understand your point with his leg… Are you saying that Aaron swong his back leg towards 3rd or the dugout… I do think at times Aaron fell over the plate and perhaps his rear leg swong away from him but I’m think his limbs are reacting to his adjustments which for me is exactly what I’m trying to point out… So I’m thinking making great contact with a really great swing is key… So as that is my approach… I’m always thinking of having my best swing but usually especially as you get up MLB… A really great swing will do especially if we make the best contact…I think Aaron swong really hard but his adjustments inherently took power away for contact… But My view is, if your thinking power… What does a 500 foot homer do for anyone…So his free falling over the plate for me makes sense…Especially if he’s swinging on something inside as your back foot lines up to the ball on contact and your rotary power will take that leg along for the ride…So to summarize… I think Aaron approach at times takes him away from the absolute swing… But I would image that Aaron knows the high level swing but would rather start at the high level swing and add in the high level approach if I can term it that way… And in doing so…it’s the swing that adjust away from the best swing in order to keep the approach at the highest… Now… I would also think, that by taking the best approach, there may be some tweaking to the high level swing in a physics or anatomy stand point but these tweaks are not substantial to the effectiveness of the swing (.ie., power wise)…

    What say you… Are you taking the postion that Aaron in my eyes… the real homerun King… And at 175 or 180… Did not have a correct swing…

    Your thoughts and ideas are appreciated… What say you? Joey you can jump in too… Especially if you have differing views or angles…

    ~DM

    Reply
  13. Joe
    Joe says:

    DJURA,

    Google pics of Henry Aaron. Take look at his grip. What do you see? Also, 19 60s hitters – Mays, Aaron, Mantle – had long strides. As a result, they wound up lunging a lot. I think Aaron’s lunging might have caused/necessitated his using his top hand the way he did.

    In answer to you other question – yes, his back foot swing around in the direction of the 3b dugout.

    Reply
  14. Djura
    Djura says:

    Ill take a good look this week Joe… It’s hard getting many good clips… But are there any specifics or particulars you want me to focus on… I feel like I have Hanks swing down pretty good but perhaps I don’t… Your right the old timers did have bigger moves just like many Latin players… I think that has to do with the cookie instructions given here by people who don’t understand what there doing or afraid of big movements… For me… I love the Medium to kind of bigger moves… I’ll take a look at Aaron but it would be nice to have some particulars to guide me to what you want to discus… I’m assuming the lunge/stride connection to the top hand????

    Read you later…

    ~DM

    Reply
  15. Joe
    Joe says:

    DJURA,
    Aaron does have the linear movement with a long stride, a characteristic of most 1960s hitters (Mantle had, according to a clip of him on Yankeeography on the YES Network, a stride length of 24 inches!). But with Aaron, it’s his grip – he literally surrounds the bat with his top hand. As a result, he has minimal front arm/hand action. He lunges because of his long stride but keeps his hands back then hits off his front foot, hooking the ball with his top hand (thus, this tendency caused many to refer to him as a wrist hitter, which was a symptom but not the cause). He not only skips his back foot, transferring his weight to his front leg, he practically jumps forward. Because he tries to hook the ball with his top hand, he leans over the plate on the pitch away causing his back foot to swing over towards the 3b dugout kind of like a slap shooting hockey player.

    You’re right, there are not a lot of clips of him. The still pics will show his grip.

    Reply
  16. kyle
    kyle says:

    Joey is right on… The smaller hitters MUST develop better swings, the larger sluggers are more likely to coast through their hitting careers because their size allows for inefficiency. The smaller hitter must experiment more and learn what makes the bat fly. Through failure the smaller hitter learns more if he persists. He will have been through the wringer many, many more times than the big hitter. He will do things better.. Swing plane..rotate faster.. Etc.. which gives him more time to make a go or no go decision. Will also have to focus better to get the same results.

    I have seen very mature 11,12 & 13U kids excel on size alone. Their swings are quicker, faster and have mass behind the swing. I have seen them 2-3 years later wondering WTF is happening… I’m no longer the bomber I was and what’s up with this BBCOR bat that goes 50′ shorter? It’s like ur 6’2″ 175 and throwing 75 at 13U. If u think maturity is gonna give u 90 MPH ur a fool… Ur already mature!!!

    Reply
  17. coach brown
    coach brown says:

    in reference to Djura’s comments concerning the best biomechanics and/or adjustability, I would like to say that swinging is not hitting and hitting is not swinging. However, if you can do both well, the probability of success is exponentially higher, depending on the definition of success.

    I have found that using the movement patterns that joey advocates creates a large margin for error, giving the hitter more adjustability for timing. That being said, I am about to drop some million dollar info right here. If you combine the best biomechanics with a great approach, you get a great hitter. The biomechanics are all over Joey’s blogs. The approach that I teach, which fully complements the mechanics, is borrowed/stolen from Steve Springer is that I want my hitters timed up for the most probable pitch and location in a given count. If the pitch they want is there, they let it rip. If its not, they simply let it go and move on to the next pitch.

    One of the biggest problems with hitters is that they try and defend the entire strike zone on every pitch, which in turn makes them not really ready to hit any with authority. I have found that if the batter has optimal swing mechanics and sits on high probability pitches in high probability locations, the result will be a high probability of hard contact.

    Reply
  18. Joe
    Joe says:

    Coach Brown,

    You are correct: efficient mechanics + good approach = success. However, the question of approach comes with two problems:

    (1) High School pitchers don’t always know where the ball is going – they don’t have the command.

    (2) Do we really want a hitter thinking up there in the batters box? Too much thinking activates brain components that inhibit a hitter from instinctively reacting to pitches. By the time a hitter reaches high school, his brain and body know how to hit. A hitter just has to let himself hit. It’s all there in brain components that aren’t involved in thinking and analysis. I mean, we’re not trying to invent a better paper clip or sticky note. Steve Springer has done great work but don’t forget what Yogi Berra said, “You can’t think and hit at the same time.”

    Reply
  19. Joe
    Joe says:

    Coach Brown,

    One other problem:

    (3) Having a good idea about what a pitcher is going to throw in a given situation would require scouting and charting opposing pitchers, then compiling the data. In high school baseball, who does that? Who has time/resources to scout and compile data? Major League teams have such time/resources to do that, thus the advent of defensive shifts. The absence of such data leaves it a guessing game for high school players as to what a pitcher is going to throw. As I said in #2, do we really want our hitters thinking too much in the batters box? Trust Yogi.

    Reply
  20. Djura
    Djura says:

    I think this adjustability that we are taking about can direct us to so many angles….

    regarding defensive shifts…. This only works because hitters don’t know how to hit… It’s that simple! How a MLB player can’t hit the other way is telling…Why there isn’t more outcry and pointing is weird… They would rather take there chances pulling and they know it’s coming…Its not like they are being surprised out there… Also pitchers don’t go inside anymore but I’m 38 so anyone older may know much better that I do… Also… The Metal bats kids grow up with…

    As to thinking… Nobody should think about mechanics in the batters box that’s for practice… But watching the pitcher for everyone’s at bat… And knowing how to adjust is something that highlights the attention to detail every great player has… And adjusting in general ought to be known but I’f we have MLB players who can’t hit the other way… There’s a hitting problem…

    Knowing how to use the whole field is something that everyone should know…It’s not for gifted players or simething that is a no teach…. It’s this understanding at a young age that gets ingrained in the batter that helps them get results later…Pitching gets better and too does hitting…And this would not be big adjustments… Only slight and perhaps unnoticeable…. I think that if you have the correct stance which also means the correct grip like Arron’s grip that these adjustments can be made…. I believe Aaron’s numbers speaks volume and I may be wrong but wasn’t that era a pitchers era… All his back foot, hooking and falling was a byproduct of s great approach in my book.. Sometimes things don’t look good because we are modeling agaist an image that is perfect and if someone swings that way and strikes out a thousand times the that one hit we look at… But it’s not for the long run…

    First can we all agree that the best way to get power is hitting the ball cleanly… Or said anouther way…better contact is most powerful… It use to be that it was embarrassing to strike out… And I’m 38 so I think anyone younger than me may not even know what I’m saying in a true sense…I was a big Donnie baseball fan and he use to say that in the mid 80’s and that stuck for me…

    Joe I think Aaron’s movements that look ” ugly” we’re the outcome of adjustments make and the limbs or the body reacts but staying to the perfect model wasn’t staying we the “picture” of the perfect swing as opposed to staying with the perfect approach… I hate using the word perfect but in this instance it might resonate better… I still have to watch some clips of his hitting because I’m not convinced his grip was wrong… If anything, the batter would not be able to use the approach I’m speaking about without that grip… The lead head would be useless except for gripping the bat so the batter can’t dictate with the lead at all if gripped differently… My grip, or the grip I’m speaks my too lets the lead hand control the the tilt, back hip and knee… Especially the back knee and gets the front foot down… More importantly, you don’t think about any of it if you can use your lead hand but to leverage all of this… The grip must be there… So just because the top hand gets all the credit… It’s not what I see… Also it’s not an always thing… So for example, when throwing… The lead hand is key to a great throw… The same in hitting… All I’m saying is that if you can use your lead hand to hit and your rear to hit… Well than my friend you’ll make better contact which my rule for power… If you only use one hand… You have a weakness and perhaps that weakness will not be
    Appreciated until high school but do we teach for now or later…

    What say you? I’m with learning the best swing than learning how to adjust for best contact… So if you don’t know how to be most powerful than adjust for contact makes you a contact hitter… I think the batter should know the perfect swing leading with his/her lead hand and leading with the rear… Than and only than you start making adjustments…I feel like its obvious to the ones who know that inside should be lead with the lead and outside should be lead with the rear… And lead is a difficult way of thinking about it… Down the plate should matter as both do the job… I like the lead for down the plate…. And if one is looking for limbs to do certain things… I start with does the batter know what he or she is doing if yes… Well the bodies movement would have been adjusts make which resonates through out the swing… First is first… Was the ball hit hard and on a nose..

    To start if one is always thinking of the top hand… And never the lead hand… There’s no way they can adjust as how would they adjust… I would say try throwing the bat with to all fields from the same stance… But try hitting targets.. I bet as you go to left if your a righty you will feel the lead hand especially if gripped correctly… Meaning arrows grip lends to adjustability… Just because he’s 180 pounds don’t think he can’t hit the ball 500 feet… That’s the trick… It’s human movement as joeys says that gives massive power but Aaron decided to take the best movements and adjust since hitting the ball with the best human movement will give him enough…

    So saying Aaron is a wrist hitter takes away that amAarin used his body best for BOTH power and contact… And if you do both you can’t hit 500 foot shots… I think Aaron made the right choice… Bout I’m sure he started as a kid as once your 17… It’s hard to change your fascia and your reflexes since you would have to unwind or change your body when you just spent 10 years pounding in you swing… I think that’s the hard part… But if it’s understood that your hands is a freflection of your body thN how is it you will do something that is no longer natural do to your posture that has been a reflection of years of doing it anouther way… I’m not sure but all I know is if I ask my friend who played pro to do something… I can predict his movements and if I ask others ( good players but didn’t make pro) there reflexes and body movements do something else… Completely unpredictable…

    For what it’s worth I never played organized ball but played stickball and all types of other baseball games while a kid in Queens… I was never taught anything m, I just played and had fun but was the first one on the friends or street and last to go…All I can say is, I was always the smallest kid but hit harder and further than everyone’s else for whatever it’s worth… And as now I have kids of my own and teaching them what I know…I’m surprised of all the cues and advice I hear… REALLY SURPRISED!!!! SHOCKED!!!!!! Especially to people I thought would know it….

    As always, your comments are appreciated…

    Hope all is well…

    ~DM

    Reply
  21. Djura
    Djura says:

    For what’s it’s worth… When I think of grip… I see a backhand and fa orehand grip like in tennis… So the alignment would not be the door knocking type since there are two grips that I see… But there are two grips in my book because the batter hasn’t decided or seen the location of the ball…so the batter is ready for anything… Ready to make whatever adjustment is needed… And if practice enough… The funny things would be… It would be an after thought like a backhand or any reaction in fielding or I guess like in tennis… The ball comes in fast but it’s a split second thing.. You just react… This would be exactly way I don’t like tees…

    ~DM

    Reply
  22. coach brown
    coach brown says:

    Joe,

    Ive been coaching high school hitters for the last 14 years. Ive seen the best results in swing efficiency and hard hit balls this past season while using the probabilities of where pitches are going to be. my hitters dont think. I simply review the fact that 80% or more pitches in a game are fastballs. 90% of those are low in the zone. So, all my hitters have to do is recognize when not to swing. they will recognize trajectory and speed. with less than 2 strikes, they take anything starting off up or anything that doesnt match fastball timing. If its below the belt and fastball speed, they are on time and hacking… I really dont think of it as thinking, but rather, shrinking down the zone to high probability pitches… where do most pitching coaches want to miss? down, to induce ground balls. we counter this by zoning in on down fastballs and we really work on elevating those pitches… consequently, low pitches are generally hit harder because of the increase of leverage on the ball, which is a plus for us because we want maximum ball exit velocity.

    Reply
  23. Djura
    Djura says:

    Coach Brown… I love your thinking…. Incorporating math into how to approach an at bat… We have to use everything we can to become the best…and obviously if it’s not working, drop it and move on… I’m sure you have more tricks too…It’s always the ones that pay attention to the details that are big time…that’s why I love Joeys stuff as he not only pays attention to details but test them too…

    If you don’t mind, may i ask you what grip you prefer and what about stride and do you allow your batters to have some hand movement…

    ~DM

    Reply
  24. coach brown
    coach brown says:

    DJura,

    I like my hitters to use a box type grip where their wrists are straight at contact, similar to punching someone. I dont advocate knocking knuckles because that creates weak wrist position at contact.

    Concerning stride… I teach my hitters to incorporate three principles found in elite level swings. 1st is forward momentum, 2nd is torque and 3rd is upward swing path. after the stride or forward move, their feet must be at least the bat length apart, but i encourage them to stretch it out further in practice. the science is 3.75 times the width of the hips. I also encourage them to land with an open front toe from 45-65 degrees, simply put down the first base line out to where the second baseman plays. i believe that this allows the knee to work as it is designed to work. the knee does not like lateral force, nor torquing. it likes to hinge. so, we land with it open and bent so that it can create greater grfs.

    Hand movement – In training, i make them lock their hands under their rear arm pit with their rear elbow puled behind them while turning their chest towards the catcher. they start in this position for all of our drills. an exagerated mickey mantle or griffey jr type set up. doing this helps create the second principle of torque. by requiring them to do this in training, i am hopeful that when they are relaxed in the box only concentrating on the ball that they naturally move to this position through their forward momentum. i have seen this in my older players’ swings.

    I am an early stride down and through convert. I spent the first 8 or 9 years of my coaching career teaching the early down and through, believing that there was and should be a difference between a pro swing and an ametuer… in the last 5 years, with joey’s and chas pippet’s eye opening video evidence, i jumped feet first and havent looked back. strangely, my teams batting averages have gone down, but quality of contact has improved dramatically. this summer, when i added our probability approach along with launch angle training, more of my hitters’ light bulbs have turned on.

    Reply
  25. Djura
    Djura says:

    Coach Brown, I agree with mostly everything your suggesting but I think where we go differently starts with our hand grip as I feel like having more than a box grip gives the batter leveraged to use the lead hand more which gives them better adjustability since now they can use two hands to work with as the box although better than the door knocking plnonsense… still doesn’t seem to get the job done from my experience but I can be completely wrong… All I ask is have you sat down and given the Aaron grip a real shot… Also if you hadn’t, I think the batter must use there lead hand more than there accustomed too which is tricky if you haven’t use it for 25 years…Either way… To me there no comparison and I have tried them all… Let me know if you try them what you think or any results… All I know most I’ve talked too just never tried it and if they do they have the same approach like having the door knocking line up… The reason you have the Aaron grip is specifically to leavage your bottom hand… Keep that in mind…

    I truly think the lead hand plays a big part in the high level swing…. Since it seems like I’m the only one who is advocating a grip even further than the box grip… Similarly to Aaron and the Mick… Although depending on what the batter does with the forefinger it might not be apparent…but not that much further than conventional box grip…but a littler bit more…I know once I’ve mentioned this to some at my complex they looked at me like I was from Mars….

    Can everyone share or comment on their view on what the lead hand does during the swing… I know it might be pitch specific for some… So a pitch on the inner half of the plate…

    I believe in a pinch if I can call it that with the lead hand that I’ve been trying (I.e., ineffectively or unconvincing) to get Joey to grasp… Joey termed it “a switch” on paper or if looking into the fascia but as far as I know Joey has not fully grasp my rationales……Controlling the back knee, back hip, lead foot planting down hard, knowing when to push your public (I.e., deep inner core), knowing when to slam your back elbow, controlling lateral tilt, controlling timing…etc… With the lead hand… Meaning you don’t even think about any off it…There is so much it can do but has anyone have experience with what I mention… Also what do you think the lead hand/fingers do when the batter is about to swing… Also if you don’t or never heard of what I’m expressing…all I would ask is get a grip like Aaron which is further than a box and try using your lead hand especially the thumb and forefinger… I can try to better explain these thoughts once I know where everyone else is coming from… So what does your lead hand/fingers do…

    And no I’m not from Mars… ?

    Hope all is well…

    ~DM

    Reply
  26. Djura
    Djura says:

    Ok this is for Joey Myers…

    So we been talking about the pinch for awhile and you know I bought Thomas Myers book… So without going into too many details and the fact is I glanced over the book so this is an educational guess about how the pinch may be translated… I do love your switch saying…Here goes nothing…

    Obviously you need a grip that goes further than a box grip… Just look at Aaron’s…But what the pinch does is coordinate the upper lines with the bottom…There are so many lines in play but as is most important it’s the trading of roles that is key and knowing how to let that happen is the difficult part as we all just want to go all in as our eyes deceive us…

    So doing your bottom 3 is extremely important to coordinate everything but remember all the lines are in play… If we look at Aaron his pumping action if I can call it that ( I think it’s his furthest back swing) is different than yours… It’s because as I see it, Aaron has more coil or winding than you do but it’s the fact that his hands are grip differently that allows him or me to get the benefit… Said anouther way, when he uncoils it appears like he’s flicking his wrist when in fact ( I think) he’s flicking his torso… So while he is unwinding, he’s waiting to pinch… And if he’s 3.5 times his waist… Great… If not… Well…we will see something out of place… A leak perhaps…but he squared it using the correct coordination of fascia lines… The only issues would be if he didn’t stride enough or had to wait a fraction of a second which makes it appear he’s getting everything on his front leg… When in fact he’s not even thinking of any of that he’s only thinking… Square it here… But do it with a feeling and that feeling appears to be a coordinating of the fascia lines with the ball… Which appears to be more important than anything else… Because if you just practice coordinating your lines… At some point and here is my guess and theory… You naturally start landing at the right distances and all the limbs naturally do what there suppose to do…So the pinch seems to be the GO while it appears the best way to excite it would be to unwind or freefall early and slow… The pinch coordinates the rest..Remember to coil as much as you can.. So diffently stretch you back and turn… Grip is more than a box… Obviously dont dare line up your big knuckles… Just a little more than box… And try to lateral tilt and just turn into a ball using your pinch… That will be the start of something…Believe me it’s big time… I know I can be wrong but I will not give up on this until I know someone else is doing the way it should be done… And your calling Hitting performance Lab ?

    However trust a stick baller from Queens…?

    If anybody else would like to try it please do and let me know your thoughts… Personally I’m not trying to say I’m right or anything… But it’s my experience that if you missing the pinch and believe me I understand all the rest… Pretty well… Or at least everything discussed here and everything Joey teaches in hus videos… If you don’t pinch it appears to me… It will be much more difficult to square a ball… Much more difficult to cover the whole plate… That’s really it… But I think making better contact and more plate coverage is really really important but what do I know I never played pro…

    Hope all is well and you find my thoughts interesting and at least interesting enough to try them for yourselves. Later…

    ~DM

    Reply
  27. Djura
    Djura says:

    There’s a bunch I’m leaving out abouting setting the torso and the rest and rear drive or controlling the humerus … Shoulder loading movements…Top hand pinch… Bottom hand bottom 3….I seen some talk about bottom hand and top hand torques and multiple torques… But they don’t explain that grip is a must to leverage correctly and remember the 3 points I spoke about… Also I’m not sure I like the term torque as the pinch is more about leveraging the bat agaist the body to make the body get into the right position and timing ( coordination as Myers puts it) to push… So if your appling a force it’s not the whole hand as there are 3 major points of force on the hand… I’m just thinking the logic flows easily through everything if we understand the lead hand pinch… Man I’ve been trying to get you to just understand what I’m saying… This may be way too complicated as too many thing can go wrong… I guess for now just get a grip bigger than the box, see Aaron and remember I noted way back about a moment of weekness… That is the unwinding, free fall of stride I guess… And once you pinch the coordination Myers speak about is strong and it so fast and smooth… Your basically turning into the ball without ever thinking about anything because you suppose to set it and forget it… Than just see ball hit ball… If something goes wrong its primary two reasons… 1) you didn’t set correctly… So all you keep you head in there or don’t stop and drive it… Well it’s all in the set up not after… Remember just finsh the swing and hold than wind up… If you unwind you’ll get to the finsh since you started there Or 2) you made a substantial adjustment so for example your rear leg is leaking because you didn’t transfer Correctly to your front side…but who cares because you HAVE to get the lead foot and leg down to get the top hand going which is resisting as best as possible also also along with the upper body ( big time upper body resistance) and remember your adjusting. It’s too important because your lead leg had to get down for coordinating the the swing… Said anouther way… Again I’m not saying I’m right I’m just throwing thoughts out there and it’s up to you to decide if it’s worth your time… But remember I see where your coming from and I obviously know what I’ve been ineffectively trying to communicate…

    At the end if I had a theory it would go like this… After knowing how to maximize the linear and rotating swings… What does that mean… It’s really hard to get rotary on the outside… You don’t really rotate much and the ball is easier to hit with the top hand because of the location… Height is a different story…Also if you go linear… It’s easy to pull a ball if you go get it… Im sure you understand… So mostly I want to use the rotatation part and I take the linear if the particulars call for it… 2 strikes and the pitcher made a good pitch… It’s an outside pitch…again the swing has both forces as you know and tam each so I hope you understand…

    At the end I know what the ideal stride 3.5 waist for some 65 percent height for adults and 50 percent kids…The back foot lines up with the bat in a perpendicular way so if going oppo the back foot points to right and if going center the back foot points up the middle and going left the back foot points…. I don’t think or know if I have to establish anything in order to highlights some observations or suggestions… So my theory is at the end you have to know the Best swing on paper (via physics and the anonomy) and the best approach (via math)… My question is what math should we look at… Obviously the noted ones… But on top of those…First the fact, yes a fact that nobody hits the ball perfectly…as every swing is different… The approach can be the same ( key)…for example Bryce Harper can hit a ball 550 feet…And how often does he do that… So…question??? what is most important about hitting… Timing… Yes… Good contact??? Yes… Using your body… Yes… The last one is key… Obviously there’s more and each one of these can have books written about them… But you termed my pinch if I can call it that… A switch… You were so right as I’m trying my best to explain it and couldn’t use a better term myself. ?…But the pinch switches the swing on (timing) which gives the batter better contact… And coordinates the fascia lines as taught by Myers if the batter set (hands are important which are tied to the body so if you got them working together right and know how important the feet are you should be ok to coil or load while leaving a little bit of the load in order to help with timing and not to use the fractions of a seconds some of these energys last) and is unwinding (free falling and God forbid I use the term stride) correctly… The best thing is if your still unwinding or even landed and still just trying to wait as long as possible… The pinch coordinates it all… So if doing what I’m suggesting the end product would be that your approach in timing if taking an average speed approach so no he throws 95 so I’m always looking 95… But less than the max…well I’ll stop with the every explanation so if you do this I believe and I’m not saying I’m right I’ll let you decide that but your (1) timing will be really accurate, your (2) contact would be really accurate (I.e., not only hitting the sweet spot but hitting it where you want to hit it, this by far is extremely important), and you will hit the ball with your body or turn into it… So what is the down fall… You hit with your body but it might be with 95% or 85%…. But question if you can hit the ball where you want to hit it with 85% of your body what does that mean… Remember I can swing at 100 percent with my pinch… Seriously why not give it all I have… I’m timing it and seeing the ball better as I’m already turning to face it… It’s almost like I’m in slow motion because I’m not thinking about nothing else but pinch and see ball hit ball as I know it will all fall into place as the swing is all about set up and approach… Well you know what I mean…So for me… So here I go again… And it’s because I do believe in what I’m saying and usually I don’t talk about these things because I don’t have the back ground and most people I talk to see the swing from the outside- in while taking everything personal and I feel like we are having a discussion…

    So to Joes point… And a great one and a sound one but when you see an imperfect Aaron grip and swing do to the hooking results, the back leg swayings or even pushing to his left and behind him and perhaps getting too much levarage on his front leg ( reminds me of the old timer Roberto C from the Pirates). I just have to respectfully disagree. If I just don’t see it I’m sorry for my ignorance… But from my point of view and I never played pro but what I see is perfection… I know that perfection is strong but I’m talking about his approach… The over weight shift is a correction to guessing wrong… The back leg kicking out is just guessing wrong… The hooking… Well this is more complicated so it’s best to leave that alone… So for me those factors are not what they seem to be just like when someone says keep your eye on the ball… The head flies mostly because of something prior to the head flying… The Aaron results are exactly the outcome of his guess… Meaning if I’m correct… It’s so damn hard to guess correctly… But we know how to switch out swing in and off and practice that since we are 9 years old… We can trick them all into believing we are guessing right and more importantly we will be hitting with our body… And one point is just hitting with your body is so damn good enough… You don’t have to hit the ball with all your body…

    Shoot here I go again Joey… I’m talking way too much… Sorry… I’m out and I hope this makes sense and by all means I could be completely wrong… All I ask is for the ones reading this to try it out for themselves just remember to coil as much as possible meaning a huge hip hinge and raising of your arms… A grip bigger than the box… And when you do Joeys bottom 3 and start unwinding start pinching the bottom hand ( deep thumb all the way to the forefinger… Remember to try to hold Joeys bottom 3… So pinch at different times of the unwinding and try to direct it…

    Ok Joey I may have to cut myself off your blog as I find it hard to comment in a few sentences and I’m feeling like a jerk leaving these long comments especially since nobody seems get what I’m saying… Alright I’m out for real…

    ~DM

    ~DM

    Reply
  28. Djura
    Djura says:

    I don’t want to mislead anyone but you have to start with perfect human being posture which is different than having perfect posture or depending if you finsh and wind up than you start with that posture which is telling…So you have to get between your shoulders while hip hinging… If you get into your shoulders but lock your knees your not lining up your pelvis with your rib cage… Unless you already have great posture… Breathing is key too as knowing how to use your diaphragm is important for a plurality of reasons… This is really complicated and perhaps I’m completely wrong or perhaps I should at least do what Joey suggest a long time ago which is gather ALL my thoughts together and make sense of them first and even do some actually test instead of going on my past and my science background… And reverse engineering… Seriously I’m not trying to be OCD but I’m finding out its really hard to explain things since little differences can completely give one differing results…. Seriously I’m out and I guess I’ll only comment if somehow anybody Interested about this approach has a question…

    ~DM

    Reply
  29. Djura
    Djura says:

    Coach Brown I love your stuff… You can tell you know the science and Joey has left an imprint as he has on all of us especially me… Without getting annoying if you don’t mind I would like to shed some light on something you mentioned that I know many people miss and by all means you just failed to mention since it might be obvious to many but I seen so many take cues, physics and numbers and misunderstand them…

    So you quoted some science with stride length (length of lead and rear foot at landing so where the feet start is considered style which may or may not matter) is 3.75 width of hips (some say 65 percent of height and 50 percent for kids)… I think this what the best science has given us… All I would suggest is this length is produced by certain movements, contractions and stretches….Basically through a maintained coordinated arrangement in ones anatomy…Said anouther way, it is the product of something already set or in motion… So I don’t know the answer to this question and I have my assumptions but if you give the answer to a batter about there stride length (at landing)… Would that indiectly affect there coordinating arrangement… Or can the batter correct there set up if they needed to be corrected and LET the stride happen…. As you can most likly notice… I think words and sometimes how something is presented is so important as little movements can change things big time… Also, I wanted to highlight how or how much one winding up affects other things…And ones posture can also affect this number as your winding up agaist your posture…

    Im sure you considered all this but didn’t want to comment forever but I’m sure some might find this helpful and better really start considering how many mistakes are found in the set up or prior to some mistake happening…

    Hope all is well…

    ~DM

    Reply
  30. Joe
    Joe says:

    DJURA,

    Edward Everett, the Harvard college professor, politician, and famous orator who spoke for two hours at Gettysburg prior to Abraham Lincoln delivering his two minute Gettysburg Address in 1863, wrote to Lincoln:

    “I came as near to the central idea of the occasion, in two hours, as you did in two minutes.”

    Yes, you said a lot in your posts. Like Everett, but your effort has been appreciated.

    However, in addition to all of that, I think you’re wrong about Aaron’s mechanics. Joey his right, he’s an example of being successful despite his mechanics.

    Reply
  31. Djura
    Djura says:

    Joe I love your quote and I’m going to have to borrow it at some point… I guess we just respectively disagree… Obviously no point in going back and forth but when you have time can you at least point me in a direction that perhaps I need to pay more attention too so at least I can know where you think I’m going wrong… I’m assuming the hand grip and how it relates to the body…For me any pointers could lead to further understanding or discovery for me…

    Again we are not going to debate as respectfully disagreeing is perfectly fine as I’m sure you understand and tried what I’m saying… And at the end results matter…

    As to agreeing with Joey Myers… I always have noted that Joey and I, with regards to the human movements Joey speaks off, are in a hundred percent agreement… If I’m doing anything I’m just trying to shed some light on a differing angle… One that adds to Joeys teaching that perhaps have not been considered… Everything I say has science and physics behind it…It’s just a matter of Results… Is this additional approach beneficial or hurtful? I’m using my own past experiences with the fact I feel like I know how to hit with or without my so called addition… And doing both is telling for me but I may be wrong and I’m just trying to get others to just execute the approach and see for themselves…The fact is if you can’t do the movements Joey speaks off you can’t add what I’m saying as the preamble of this addition is you start with understanding the perfect human movements…

    By the way, Joey has yet to discount nor disagree with any of my statesments and in fact has coined the pinch I speak off as “a switch” which to me means he’s considering it and at least understands what I’m trying to communicate… Well at least on paper… But paper results would be a start but at the end we need real results….The addition needs real results… My problem is I get lost in the details and particulars… And it’s hard for me to explain it in 5 minutes… But to me hitting is so complicated and what I’m adding is so slight and difficult to see with the eye and seems trivial but for me so major in production….and coordination when making a split second explosive move like swinging a bat…

    At the end we can sum it up as make my the batter is always in the best postion to hit every single time with the difference being from at bat to at bat just how much of the batters body will the batter use… The fact that the batter is in a great postion to hit and using there body no matter what and if it’s 80% or 97% is all great… When the batter is in a great postion to hit… But you have to know Joeys movements first… I’m just adding and approach and perhaps a little more winding which just flows with what I’m saying since the batter just rides the unwinding…

    I may phrase thing differently too but that’s just terms…

    Anyway thanks for looking into it it’s appreciated…. Later Joe…

    ~DM

    Reply
  32. Joe
    Joe says:

    DJURA,

    The quote was merely tongue in cheek. I don’t disagree with you or Joey. I believe in the principles and methods (thanks Emerson) that Joey emphasizes.

    As for Aaron? (1) he lunged; (2) his grip was off; (3l his head came over the plate – your body follows your head, thus his balance was adversely affected; (he had an early arm bar, characteristic of a lot of 60s hitters who were athletic specimens who utilized elastic energy, something Bryce Harper does today.

    Reply
  33. Djura
    Djura says:

    Joe this is a new one for me… I know we see what we want to see… You see lunging i see unwinding… From my observation it makes sense to pinch my lead hand to accelerate the winding as needed… It wouldn’t make sense for you to accelerate a lunging move as that may make you fall if anything if you see it as lunging it would be slowing it down or balancing that move might come to mind…. The grip… Again I see the ability to leverage it all with the bottom hand or left hand… So what do you think the bottom hand in there for… For example and by all means I’m not trying to put words in anyone’s mouth but some say nothing and I’m saying leveraging it all… Again we see and feel what we want… With the “stride” we see the same thing but than actually see something different…and the bottom hand… We feel something and feel it differently based on set up… But this is a first… And I just learned something that I would not have thought off ever… That your rationale or conclusion that Aaron leans over the plate which hurts his balance since his body follows his head is the identical reasoning why I want to do it… When I catch a ball I lead with my eyes and my body follows… Same when I throw… And most definitely when I hit… I first ask the question if you can look your body into postion wouldnt that be awesome and easier than moving your body directly… Looking appears to be easier…You see most of it is indirectly doing something and most of it is letting it happen so not stopping it or Gerri g in its way. The problem is the eyes can lie and the feeling can’t always be trusted which this makes ones conclusions including my own suspect… Another way of saying it is what you see might already have happened or what you feel might already of happened and if that’s right is it possible that the reason to do something can make one think that reason is not to do something…The top part of the spinal cord will counter rotate… And if your posture is great it’s easy to look and push the pubic bone with the deep core muscles and letting everything do its thing if the feet and HANDS are fixed and leveraging the ground and bat…knowing how to work the deep inner core like tucking your stomach in while activating your diaphram is key and perhaps is the moment of weakness I talked about previously in previous comments going from one plane to another…

    For me I get lost in the details because I’m trying to put into words and trying to use science without getting knee deep in it to explain what Pete Rose meant by see ball hit ball… Well did you say something about the head being somewhere and the body following the head… How about I explain one of my thousand observations… What I see is if set up correctly you can look at a ball like you going to catch it and activate your core which brings your hands into postion and than you push there… Another way of saying exactly what Pete Rose indirectly meant… Funny I think I can explain what he meant and I’ll put money on it that he meant just stop thinking and just hit the damn ball… Funny isn’t that what I said… I’m saying let it happen…

    I gots observations and people don’t want to hear them or if they do don’t even try them…. Joe im using the same idea for doing something that you concluded does the exact opposite… Unreal!!!!

    And If you understand what I’m saying I’m adding to Joeys teachings…except for the grip and I would set a little more of the “show me the numbers” in order to wind my body up a little more, I’m also smaller, which makes my hand movement more downwardly as opposed to inwardly but it’s all the same logic until we get into the addition… So the addition leads to thinking of more winding and more levarage with the bottom hand… A switch is good but it can accelerate… One can also think of a two handed throw with pinches one after another if a bottom hand and top hand pinch… Again there’s elbow action and pinching and holding the top hand and letting the top hand go along with the ride…Again all types of variations…

    To me the pinch explains Donnie baseballs swinging down ( with the lead hand) while A Rod speaking of trying to keep the back hand above the ball as long as possible…

    If the physics is understood than what happens when you accelerate a moving object in a curve… The answer is why so many pros look really silly doing a slow motion swing…especially Doniie baseball… And not knowing the physics makes one say something they really don’t mean…

    Again not knowing the anatomy makes some say it’s all in the hands…

    We are all ingnorent just about different things…But sometimes the clues are there…

    For example the fascia lines explains connections in the hands to the rest of the body…

    For example can we say my pinch is of the contralateral complement type where the batter power ups through the left hand to impart extra speed to an object held in the right hand….Or vice versa… Where my hold in regards to the top hand with Joeys Bottom three impart more speed on the bottom hand… One thing for sure… Stabilizing, counterbalancing and most importantly contralateral complement means it’s best to use both hands… Myers words with my twist… ?

    Seriously after reading my comments… Be real now… Did you read my comments and gloss over them and not try them and just explain Aaron’s swing like you never even read my comments… Meaning did you not even consider anything I said…

    And if that’s the case no worries Joe… That is why we have the same solution for doing something and not doing something…unreal…

    I’m going on vacation soon… Later..

    ~DM

    Reply
  34. Joe
    Joe says:

    DJURA,

    No, I read your comments. Edward Everett lives! Just kidding.

    Aaron lunged, as did guys of his era like Mays, Mantle, and,even, Williams. They lunged because of their long strides. Aaron compensated by hooking the ball with his top hand. What caused what is a a chicken/egg argument. For the balance issue, watch clips of Mantle (from a HR Derby show – its like 5 seconds long), Carlos Gomez, and Carlos Correia. Observe their body position and head position. All on YouTube.

    For head movement/eye on the ball issue, read A. Terry Bahill’s Carnegie Mellon study from the 1980s. Try to get the clip of Jose Bautista’s HR in the playoffs vs. Texas, the bat flip one. It’s on YouTube. I’d send it but can’t post it from my phone. Watch his head. Watch Josh Donaldson.

    Enjoy your vacation.

    Reply
  35. Djura
    Djura says:

    Joe I’ve considered your comments… I found some articles from the author and read 3 different articles… I’m
    Not sure what you want me to observe…. About the head… There’s numerous fascia lines connected to said head/neck…. The head tilts and sticks out… Almost like a forward head posture….And for good reason as the batter should set it and forget it and LET the head do its thing… I’m not getting to that as you have not given me any specifics… But the reason these players stick there head out is because it’s extremely enhances the swing… Again we see the same thing and make the same observations but come up with differing conclusions…

    Aaron is unwinding… If he just lefts his front leg up he takes off… If you watch Mantle it’s even more apparent… So feet are appling ground reaction forces big time…. But it’s indiectly… Now it’s my turn look at Aaron… Just look… Look… Your funny… I can name players too and say look.. Seriously you have not commented on any of my observations… No worries…

    Depending on the slow motion clip… What I see are adjustments but if you had my eyes you might see Aaron holding the bottom hand hard than doing Joeys bottom 3 downwardly so the bottom hand is resisting and going along… Than at the height of the bottom 3 it’s held and he pinches his bottom hand really hard getting a really nice tight swing…

    I’ve seen clips of all those batters… Joe… I think your missing some of my points… The specifics and the bigger picture… I do these things… So when you say this or that.. Or see that person… I’m making comments and observations from a reverse engineering aspect not a I’m looking at a clip and guessing… I didn’t know what I did and now I’m getting really close… But the more I discover, the more questions I have… But seriously what you add and what did I add… I took your advice and took the time to read the articles and others.. Again what did you want me to do…

    The head is a big part of the swing… But your missing what I’m saying… Again… Finsh and wind up… If you know how to hold it… It’s all there like a spring… All you do is touch it… The tilt is there…The swing is there… It’s just when and where… Your unwinding the swing and just adjusting to where the ball is…. The is big… What is hard us letting it unwind…

    Later man … And no more… Look at this person or that person…

    I’m not sure if I’ll even comment again… As I’m not getting any feed back… Thanks Joe but asking me to read an article or to watch some player is too general… If you read my comments in knee deep in the swing… And if I’m wrong it’s not by design… Later…

    ~DM

    Reply

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