Baseball Batting Stance & Hitting Techniques: Josh Donaldson Explains His Swing

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13 Josh Donaldson Gold Nuggets: You Didn’t Have To Be A Professional, To Teach High Level Baseball Batting Stance & Hitting Techniques

(I apologize in advance…PLEASE set aside about 14 minutes of reading time for the following baseball batting stance & hitting techniques post. It’s a bit of an emotional RANT ūüėČ

Baseball Batting Stance & Hitting Techniques: Josh Donaldson

Josh Donaldson talks hitting with Mark DeRosa on MLB Network. Photo courtesy: MLB.com

We FINALLY have validation!!!

To have 2015 AL MVP Josh Donaldson affirm A LOT of what we teach here at HPL!

Some of you may have seen the above video already…

If you HAVE NOT seen it, then please watch.

In the following baseball batting stance & hitting techniques¬†post, I go into more depth about the¬†13 talking points¬†Josh Donaldson mentions about the “NEW science of hitting”, beginning where Ted Williams left off.

By the way, CLICK HERE to see an article where JD CRUSHES an online pseudo-science ‘hitting guru’.

After we go over the @BringerOfRain20 talking points,

I want to address the few ex-Pro and MLB player TROLLS that wrongly tear myself, my colleagues, and my readers down on the socials for bringing up things Josh Donaldson addresses in the above video.

Without further adieu,

From my baseball batting stance & hitting techniques video notes…

 

Note #1: Back knee inside foot or weight inside back knee?

Buster Posey Back Knee Position

Is Buster Posey’s back knee being prematurely shifted inside his foot in the ‘Float’? Photo courtesy: InWriteField.com

This was a question from Mark DeRosa…

Josh Donaldson responds that he focuses his weight on his back heel and back hip.

I HATE when hitting instructors PREMATURELY force the back knee of every hitter they instruct, inside the foot (even in the stance).

There are phases to the swing, and Donaldson is talking about what my hitters refer to as the ‘Float & Fall’…

Matt Nokes calls it the ‘Ride & Stride’.

During the ‘Float’ or ‘Ride’, the hitter DOES NOT have to prematurely push their back knee inside the back foot…or focus the weight on the inside of the back knee.

CLICK HERE for a baseball batting stance & hitting techniques post I did on this, dealing with a Twitter Troll.

NEWS FLASH…

Self proclaimed elite hitting instruction doesn’t rest on taking a ton of ‘quality hacks in the cage’ and/or debating over millions of hours of video analysis footage of ‘only the best hitters’.

WTF does ‘quality hacks’ and ‘only the best hitters’ mean!!!!!?

Are we suppose to take your word for it that you know what you’re doing?!

Nah.

I’d rather watch The Kardashians.

Okay, back to focusing on where the weight is in the Float…

Prematurely forcing weight on the inside of a ‘dumb joint’, like the knee, can really put undo stress on the ligament material.

Coaches…please DO NOT wear holes in your players’ knees. ¬†This is really important for those FP softball hitting coaches.

And on that note,

FP softball coaches,¬†CLICK HERE for a great BreakingMuscle.com post titled, “Women: Protect Your Knees With the Sprinter Stance Squat”.

 

Note #2: Not thinking about hands going towards the baseball

Derek Jeter: Hands Inside The Baseball

Derek Jeter is one of the few having a lengthy career with an extreme handsy approach. Not too many hitters could get away with how he did what he did. Photo courtesy: BaseballByTheYard.com

I totally agree!

ALL the following baseball batting stance & hitting techniques coaching cues are destructive for youth swings:

  • Hands to the ball
  • Knob to the ball
  • Be short to the ball
  • Hands inside the ball

Yes! Especially the last one…

WHY?

Like the others, it gets the hitter thinking about doing something with the path of their hands.

Some of you use this cue when instructing hitters, and¬†may get occasional positive results…

However,

Any coaching cue that requires an extensive explanation or doesn’t get predictably positive outcomes, is INEFFECTIVE.

I’m looking for cues that with a minimal number of words, gets my hitter to do what I want them to do, even if the concept is new to them…over and over.

 

Note #3: When Josh Donaldson begins his fall forward, that’s when he goes into loading his upper half (his ‘coil’)

Andrew McCutchen Showing his Numbers

Andrew McCutchen ‘showing his numbers’ while his lower half is beginning to turn counter-clockwise. Photo courtesy: MLB.com

YESSSSS!!

I get asked this baseball batting stance & hitting techniques question quite a bit…when does the ‘load’ start?

And this depends on your definition of a load. ¬†But in Donaldson’s context…

The timing of Donaldson’s load, or ‘coil’, isn’t necessarily the rule,

It’s one of three options…

Option #1: Some hitters start in the ‘coiled’ position (highly recommended for younger hitters):

  • Yoenis Cespedes,
  • Hunter Pence, and
  • Ben Zobrist (from the left side)…

Option #2: Some hitters move into the ‘coiled’ position similar to Donaldson:

  • Bautista,
  • Cano, and
  • McCutchen…

Option #3: Some hitters move into the ‘coiled’ position later, like Dustin Pedroia.

The objective is that at landing, or what Josh Donaldson refers to as ‘heel plant’, the hitter is in this ‘coiled’ position.

I call this the Catapult Loading Position.

And it requires the lower half to be open at landing (pelvis on down), and the upper half (above pelvis), to be closed.

Additionally, I LOVE Jose Bautista’s timing cue of loading ‘slow and early’ (CLICK HERE for a post I did on that).

More on the lower half landing open a bit later…

Note #4: Creating bat speed with shoulders, NOT hands (effortless bat speed)

Josh Donaldson: Spinal Engine

Josh Donaldson’s swing illustrating the spinal engine and Springy ‘X’ Pattern discussed in the next section. Photo courtesy: PicPlayHost

This is VERY important…

WHY?

Because EVERY human movement is driven by the spinal engine…pelvis-spine-shoulders.

According to Dr. Serge Gracovetsky in his book The Spinal Engine, the spinal engine can move in a vacuum.

However, it’s the relationship between arms, legs, and Gravitational Forces that amplify how explosive an athlete can be.

Quite a few hitting instructors talk about hip thrust or loading and exploding the hips.

But what are the shoulder’s function in all this?

Being passive?

I don’t think so.

Some would say a right handed hitter’s front shoulder at landing should be pointing at the pitcher.

This is an ineffective hitting mechanic, shown in this Zepp swing experiment (CLICK HERE) where I observed an average 6-mph boost in Bat Speed at Impact showing my numbers to the pitcher versus pointing the front shoulder at the pitcher (not showing numbers), over 200 swings.

Don’t get me wrong, YES, the pelvis does ‘lead the way’ as Ted Williams said in The Science of Hitting.

But it plays a much smaller role than coaches believe.

Think about how we walk…

If I told you to fire your hips as you walked, what do you think your shoulders would do?

They’d FIRE also!

How about if I told you to fire your hips while walking, but don’t let your shoulders move

Would that feel awkward?

Dr. Serge Gracovetsky talks about the coupled motion of the spine…

Meaning, while the hips rotate when we walk (albeit small to the naked eye), the shoulders counter-rotate the pelvis.

This is why your right arm and left leg swing forward at the same time.

To have effortless bat speed, like Josh Donaldson says, you MUST teach your hitters to take advantage of these natural laws of human movement.

DON’T use baseball batting stance & hitting techniques to coach them out of them.

 

Note #5: Rubber band effect, ‘stretching’, creating tension at the finish of his load

Another YESSSSS!

Although Josh Donaldson uses different baseball batting stance & hitting techniques terms, he’s talking about the compression/tension forces in the body via connective tissue called fascia.

Thomas Myers in his book Anatomy Trains describes, what he calls Tensegrity (Tension-Integrity), like this:

I don’t like to think of the body as a rubber band, but rather like a spring.

But what Donaldson is describing is correct.

I refer to this as the Springy ‘X’ Pattern.

CLICK HERE for this video post describing this using Adrian Gonzalez’s swing as a model.

 

Note #6: Creating the timing to hit the pitch

Most people probably missed this point in the video…Donaldson briefly mentioned it, but I find it VERY important.

TIMING FOR HITTING IS EVERYTHING.

This is why I don’t like rapid fire soft toss OR 15-pitch marathon rounds batting practice.

It’s NOT¬†about quick hands either.

Look, a baseball player may only see one pitch every 12-20 seconds.

A fast-pitch softball player may see one pitch every 8-15 seconds.

In games, swing intensity EVERY swing matters.

I can take a hitter with seemingly slow hands, adjust his or her timing, and have them barreling the ball more.

Of course, we’ll have to address their still ineffective mechanics at some point in the future, but the point is, it’s not about fast hands.

It’s about using the shoulders to speed up the hands.

The opposite IS NOT true.

Coaches handicap hitters by using ineffective drills like rapid fire soft toss, drop toss, and/or marathon B.P. sessions.

Again,

TIMING IS EVERYTHING IN HITTING.

CLICK HERE for “The Dead Simple Guide To Optimizing A Hitter’s Timing In Games”.

 

Note #7: Front foot is open…hips can’t separate from upper half

Miguel Cabrera: Landing Closed

Miguel Cabrera is one of my favorite swings to model, except for landing closed (less than 45-degree angle). However, he’s a physical beast, and most definitely succeeds despite one ineffective mechanic. Photo courtesy: MLB.com

Another baseball batting stance & hitting techniques golden nugget from Josh Donaldson.

However, there are quite a few other coaches getting their panties in a bunch about this comment.

CLICK HERE and follow the thread of one of my Facebook posts.

CLICK HERE and follow a Facebook post thread of my friend and colleague Taylor Gardner, founder of the BackSpin Tee.  Actually a lot of really good discussion happening on this one.

They’re reinterpreting it as Donaldson is saying to ‘point the landing toe at the pitcher’.

This may be what it looks like in the video, which we also have to be careful of camera angles…

But the point of the matter is, that Donaldson is saying to ‘land open’.

And this is where, us coaches, must define terms.

I say if the landing foot is opened less than 45-degrees, the foot is closed.

If the landing foot is opened more than 45-degrees, the foot is open.

Chris Welch at ZenoLink says the front foot should land open, roughly around 65-degrees (at about 2-min mark):

And I agree.

I do think hitters like Donaldson and Bautista are more on the open side than others.

With my definition of landing foot closed versus open, I’d rather have my hitters err on the side of open, than closed.

CLICK HERE for another Zepp swing experiment where I tested this and found an average bat speed boost of 3-mph boost when landing open, over 200 swings.

Kyle Harrington, dad of one of my online hitting lesson students Stephen, who’s currently 13yo, 5’7″, 130-lbs…

Recently, increased his Ball Exit Speed 5-mph in the last 5 months off the tee, to now 77-mph.

I asked Kyle, what were the two biggest contributors to the increase…and he responded with:

“He grew about 2″ but he’s only 5’7”. ¬†I think the main thing is that he is not stalling the bat. ¬†In the 3D testing with Chris Welch [of ZenoLink.com] his peak bat speed slowed almost 10 mph before impact, which is common. ¬†So he is decelerating the barrel less coming into impact. ¬† He was blocking with the front hip and all the speed was too early . ¬†So he’s actually ¬†moving the bat speed forward in his swing more (where impact is) ¬†rather behind the ball before impact. ¬†That’s the main reason.”
This can happen for a few reasons:
  • Too much forward momentum (yes you can have too much),
  • Landing closed with the front foot, and
  • Inward turning (coiling) the pelvis towards the catcher (shifts our 45-degree optimal impact zone too deep into the swing).

When the hitter lands closed, as Donaldson said, it’s more challenging to optimize the body’s natural springy fascia.

It’s also worth noting that the front ‘foot shape’ will change depending on pitch location at impact.

For instance,

On an outside pitch, we’ll see the foot more flat, and possibly more closed, than on an inside pitch.

 

Note #8: 10yo kid told to get on top of the ball, tell them NO…don’t get paid for hitting ground-balls

Effect of Speed Fades Only When Launch Angles Exceed 10-degrees.

Ground-ball Coaches, if you spent more time instructing 10-degree launch angles and boosting Ball Exit Speeds, than you do telling hitters to always hit the ball on the ground, our hitters will be in a better position to crush pitchers.

For me, this tip was definitely the highlight of this video.

Btw, I agree…AGAIN!

And I’m not going to get into this in detail, because I already did that in¬†“The UGLY Truth About Hitting Ground-Balls” RANT post.

What’s more,

There was a comment on my baseball batting stance & hitting techniques Facebook post that is worth noting:

Reader A: “If I’m coaching a team of 10 year olds, and either the kid (or parent) tells me no, they ought to start looking for another team to play for. If you allow a kid to tell you no at that age, the kid will become uncoachable when he gets older.”

And here was a great response from another readers to this person:

Reader B: “If a teacher tells your kid 2+2 is 5, you don’t want him to have the courage and character to question the teacher? ¬†This society man, anyone that questions authority is deemed to be at fault…how dare they!!!”

I agree with Reader B…however, I understand there are ignorant parents, as well as players, out there as well.

However, speaking in the context of what Donaldson is saying, I agree with Reader B on this.

If you’re a coach that’s teaching hitters to ALWAYS hit the ball on the ground, you’re being ineffective as a coach. ¬†And you MUST get educated because if you’re aren’t growing, then you’re dying.

 

Note #9: Relaxed in stance…time that arms get engaged with the body is during his ‘coil’ (mentions ‘scap load’)

Jace: Fixing Bat Drag w/ Finger Pressure

Jace, one of my 11yos, weighs 67-lbs, and hit his first homer over a 180-foot fence. We fixed his racing back elbow bat drag with connecting his hands to his spinal engine through finger pressure.

I totally agree.

There’s a time to be relaxed, and then there’s a time to connect the body (driving engine) to the “things” holding the bat…the hands.

CLICK HERE for another Zepp swing experiment that talks about what I teach to my hitters as ‘finger pressure’, and how we’re banishing racing back elbow bat drag with this technique alone.

It’s ALL about “connection” folks. ¬†Quite a few of the young hitters I see just aren’t connected.

But when they get connected…this is when we can triple their body-weight in distance (see Jace image above).

Note 10: Hands load it (versus shoulders), then barrel tips too much…leads to getting underneath balls

Josh Donaldson is talking about getting into his load (or ‘coil’) with his shoulders and not his hands.

When he uses his hands to get there, he feels it leads to an excessive ‘barrel tip’ (click¬†following link), and to getting under the ball too much.

CLICK HERE for an AthleticsNation.com article titled, “Josh Donaldson: Changes in Approach & Mechanics”.

In this article, Jerry Brewer from East Bay Hitting Instruction compares Donaldson’s swing and metrics from 2013 to 2014.

The one big difference being an excessive barrel tip in 2014, leading to drops in his BA, OBP, & SLUG metrics by something like 50 points EACH.

By the way, Jerry is right on with the swing as well.

 

Note 11: At landing, wants bat to be at 45-degree angle, and to split his head from behind

I agree.

I don’t really want to get into this, but I thought it was a good little baseball batting stance & hitting techniques nugget from the video.

 

Note 12: Swing down to create backspin

The Science of Hitting Graphic on optimal bat path

This is where I see Josh Donaldson picking up where Ted Williams left off. This is a well known graphic from Williams’s book The Science of Hitting.

This is something Josh Donaldson is against, and I agree.

Yes, every once in awhile, a hitter can swing down on a ball and launch one.

Did you read the keywords there…? ¬†“Every once in awhile.”

Do you know what the majority outcomes will be doing this?

Ground-balls.

And if you read my Ground-ball RANT, then you know how inferior default teaching your hitters to hit them is, unless of course you have hitters who run like greased lightning, or in a Hit & Run type scenario.

The biggest argument here, comes from Little League coaches saying, but the ground-ball is the hardest hit ball to field, throw, and catch.

And my rebuttal is, what happens when your ground-ball hitting team meets a team that can play catch?

It doesn’t matter anyway, because a majority of pitches are taught to keep the ball down in the zone to hitters.

WHY?

Because PITCHERS WANT HITTERS DRIVING THE BALL INTO THE GROUND.

 

Note#13: Intent – damage at all times

I thought this was a HUGE baseball batting stance & hitting techniques gold nugget.

When asked if Donaldson makes educated decisions to commit on pitches or against pitchers, he says, yeah it depends…

BUT,

His intent is to do damage at all times.

“Why wouldn’t I?” He smirks to Mark DeRosa ūüėõ

Double and Dinger damage.

That’s what the Blue Jays pay him for.

Our objective as hitting coaches should be to get our sluggers hitting the ball as hard as their physical ability will allow them…as frequently as possible.

To return this baseball batting stance & hitting techniques post full circle, let me repeat:

You Didn’t Have To Be A Professional, To Teach High Level Baseball Batting Stance & Hitting Techniques Today

You just have to understand human movement principles that are validated by science, and apply these “rules” to hitting a ball.

And I’m out…

[Joey drops the mic…]
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Joey Myers

I’m a member of the American Baseball Coaches Association (ABCA), the International Youth and Conditioning Association (IYCA), and the Society for American Baseball Research (SABR).I’m also a HUGE supporter of the Positive Coaching Alliance (PCA).

I’ve spent 11+ years in the corrective fitness industry, and have too many alphabet-soup certifications to bore you with.I also played four years of Division One baseball at Fresno State from 2000-2003.

It’s NOT how you study, but what you study that counts.I apply human movement principles (or rules), validated by science, to hitting a baseball and softball.
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85 Comments

  1. Joe

    Bill,

    Not really. Old school eventually becomes new school as the cycle comes full circle. Look closely at the old timers – Ruth, Williams, DiMaggio, Aaron, Mays, Mantle – the only thing that distinguishes Donaldson from them is his leg lift. The basic components all there in all of them.

  2. Joe

    The hitters in between those guys and today’s hitters didn’t always conform to the principles of human movement science that Donaldson and Joey referred to. Perhaps that is what Bill was referring to. Today’s hitters are not your father’s hitters – most likely your grandfather’s hitters.

  3. Anthony ortiz

    Get video Joey, can you breakdown Justin Turner’s swing. I think he applies the same approach and I want my son to use him as an example of how to bat. My son is Isaiah, we went up a few years back with B-town sliders.

  4. Djura

    Joey… I love this article…Would it be possible to be handzy without leading with your hands…I don’t want to talk too much… If you know how to work your shoulder I’ll bet you you know how to work your hands… Some call it educating the hands…The problem I think is how one interpretes action or force… One of the biggest forces in the baseball swing is resistance… There’s upper body resistance and hand resistance… Either way if the hands are resisting or the shoulders are resisting… Well it has to go somewhere either in a load or to the next moving part… I’m sorry but if the hands are not doing what they should be doing than the shoulders are in trouble… There are too many fascia lines involved to break it down but we have multiple lines coordinating within the same hand/shoulder…etc… All I’m saying is leading with the hands in the zone makes no sense but leading with the hands when thinking of actions or forces are different in my book…Again… Is it possible to lead with the hands in force while the hands either go back or don’t move… I think this is another angle many don’t consider… Shoot… Does bottom 3 mean you use the hands first… In some way…As you know I don’t like the cues and I think the way we communicate the swing ought to be reconsidered… It’s really complicated to get into the details… But resistance is an action no different than going along… Pulling or pushing… Shoot what does pushing and pulling mean.., if you do the bottom 3 what is that and if you reorient the bottom 3 with the lead hand in the strike zone than what is the bottom 3 doing in said new orientation in the zone…

    The Damage one is funny… What is it others are teaching kids to do… Of course you ought want to do damage…

    By the way there’s something that connects all the coordination between the fascia lines if set up correctly….?

    Great article!

    ~DM

  5. Joe

    DJURA,

    The hands are last on the kinetic chain. It’s called sequential summation of movement. The hands just hold the bat and are only along for the ride. Start with the feet and work your way up the chain. Philip Adair, in THE PHYSICS OF BASEBALL, said that the hands merely transfer the kinetic energy that began with the feet.

  6. Djura

    Joe I see what you are saying yet again…Buy I think if the hands had one function I would agree but I think the hands have at least 6 functions so if I’m repeating what others have said I’m sorry but I’ve never heard it… So yes one function ends the chain but I think your seeing one hands when I see a set doing a plurality of actions… So to start have you heard this angle and if not lets understand my point before we disagree with it… If you do understand it than we just respectfully disagree at this point… Thanks for your time brother…

    Also you must know how to work the hands in order to properly channel that chain… If the hands go alone for the ride than we are not maximizing the bodies energies in my view… Even being passive means something it could mean you know how to let things fall I. Place…But I have to know what you mean by along for the ride… If I watch batters hit… I see most batters do all kind of things with there hands which makes sense as many have different postures and sizes… So they are pulling and pushing their strings in order to maximize there posture….But to say they go alone with the ride… To start the grip is key… And if you have bad posture your hands will be affected…I’m not going into details so I’ll stop here… Later…

    ~DM

  7. Djura

    Seriously… Let me say it another way since your not understanding my point and just arguing points made by others… I’m pretty sure I’m suggesting something different than most have heard but instead of asking questions we just just argue what it appears I’m saying… So let’s state it this way… I agree with your statement about that one chain… Remember the body makes multiple chains of energy… So I’ll take your chain and coordinate another with it… So I’m added another chain in the mix… So if you think I’m wrong… I’m adding to yours… Think about it… That would mean.. I would do it that way and add something to it… Think about that perspective because if I can do that than perhaps I see what your saying because I can’t get to my conclusion without see it… At the end… I’m adding to your view point… Perhaps I’m wrong but it seems like in baseball everyone see it in the abstract and says there a linear, rotational, hybrid, old school, new school… Blah… Blah… Blah.. And if we frame one that way we know what to say…

    Joe… Please try to understand what I’m saying because if I’m wrong… My bad… But if I’m right… Well… If we appreciate the swing… It’s that huh moment… That we all love when studying these things…Again I’m just trying to get my point accoss….

    ~DM

  8. Djura

    Also… The swing starts at the first movement for me… So the bat moving across the zone would be a fraction of the swing for me…Also if you say the hands don’t do anything are you saying the bottom 3 as Joey teaches ought not be taught… Again… For me saying, the hands are along for the ride fails to appreciate all what the hands do… The winding( pulling), pinching( pushing), resisting ( holding), actually going along ( moving with an action or force)…etc… I guess we can say compression and tensions and all… Joey can shed more light on that perhaps…Again… How does the hands go alone for the ride… If the shoulder is doing something the hands better be too… Let’s point to the biceps that hit the shoulders in different ways… Again you can quote what you want I know the physics… I’m not talking about the physics here… Most of the physics is high school physics… If anyone reading this doesn’t understand the physics read Joeys stuff… It’s not the physics that is difficult but there are a few things that may be but most is basic… It’s the body movements… And I know a few that I think are key… And I’m trying to go there but for some reason it’s so hard to talk about the baseball swing…Oh well… I’m out later….

    ~DM

  9. Djura

    Realize I asked if its possible to use the hands but not have them get ahead… Again even this statement is faulty… Because we are seeing the hands as one unit… One thing when first there are two and each hand can apply multiple actions….

  10. Djura

    All I would say is we always hear that pros say so much about the hands… And some say… They don’t know what they feel… Funny! Perhaps they just don’t know how to express it because we see the hands as one unit… Let’s give them the tools and than ask them what fascia lines do They use…Open Thomas Myers book… Look at the fascia lines and diagram it and remove the human body… Look at each hand and see the connections… Yours ( said chain from the ground up… Which is debatable too) is there but don’t think it’s the only one… Again… Do you understand my points and realize I see your points so I’m not asking for an answer… What I’m trying to do is Joey an angle that perhaps he never heard… Because he’s surrounded by most who heard it the same way…The fact is Joey knows it better than most but I still think that seeing it in different angles is difficult and this is where I come in…So Joey does any of this sound interesting… Have you heard it expressed this way… Also I have other observations that would help make more sense of this perspective… Perhaps…

    By the way… Question for Joey… Is it possible to use a fascia line twice…

  11. kyle harrington

    it is completely possible to hit a ball without the hands moving in their relationship to the back shoulder.

  12. Djura

    Kyle… It is possible… Question???? When you say the hands don’t move in relation are you suggesting that the hands are not applying any action or force… Because in my view, like you said the hands may not move but it’s possible that they are applying forces and actions while not moving too…But if I may ask where are you taking us with this… I like your point…. Hope all is well.

    ~DM

  13. Djura

    Bob… All I can say is in my sports complex they do…. And some are travel folk coaches telling the kids this… It blows my mind!!!!! I never heard this growing up in the inner city… I was shocked that anyone would teach kids this… Seriously shocked… And then I heard other cues and to this day I’m in disbelief in what coaches teach…. I get it… The swing is extremely complicated but some of the cues I hear thrown around makes me speechless…. It’s nice having Joey actually putting some of these things to rest….

    It’s the extremely complicated stuff that we are all trying to figure out that is just mind blowing hard….

    ~DM

  14. Djura

    By the way… Listen to his front side mechanics….I promise you… If you start with the front hand or shoulder or serretus anterior…. However you like to say it but that chain… The lead elbow is always in the right position… This is big time…. Also as he get to his positions watch how he leverages his hands and how if you had to point to a point it would not be the entire hand but a particular part of the hand… I’m not going into details unless anyone has questions…. So for example… The bottom 3 can be loaded with the rear shoulder… Shoot Gary Sheffield used both shoulders to wiggle his bat… I think…Many people moved there bat with there shoulders… As a kid I violated had movement in my bat using only my shoulders but only because I knew how to grip the bat and leverage that grip via my hands….

  15. Djura

    Again the devil is in the details… You have to know how to fight with the hands… You have to know how to insist with the lead and hold with the rear hand and how to interject with the so called shoulders and more specifically the rear shoulder… The biggest issue with this teachings is if your fasica isn’t molded for this it’s weird especially if you grip ( leveraging is off)… Your lead elbow will always be in the right plane which is big time… You just have to practice it to perfect it and again I’m not expressing all the details… It should feel like your body turning but knowing how to leverage the hands so the direct and indirect actions do there things…

    If you look at Josh at certain moments you can see the fascia lines and how the hands can move things around… It’s like the end of the strings are at certain points in his hand and he can pull and hold, push, just hold… Etc and have things fall in place… It’s suttle but it’s all leveraged in the hands ( and feet) or else you can’t do it as those lines will be not engaged… So think of magnets… Sometimes you use your hands and/or feet and have it all meet together…

    Again difficult to explain if we are seeing it from the ground up…and not the bigger picture…There’s more to it than the physics but I guess you would have to hear what Joey is saying or just understand my points…

    ~DM

  16. Joe

    Djura,

    All I’m saying is, that the hands only transfer the energy that is built from the ground up, to the bat. I agree with Donaldson when he says he’s not thinking hands. That he’s not trying to hit the ball with his hands. He doesn’t have a hands approach.

    Yes, I agree with you that the hands apply pressure to the bat, torquing action on the handle in getting the swing going out of the stance (pointed out by Mike Epstein, which he referred to as the “hand torques”) and the pressure applied by the bottom three fingers of the top hand (as Joey has pointed out in his posted articles) which helps a hitter both start his swing and get on pitch plane. Finally getting in the palm up/palm down position is critical.

    However, the hands do not initiate the movements in by themselves. Once again, the hands are the last in the “sequential summation of movement” in the often referred to “kinetic chain.” As Donaldson said, he’s not thinking hands.

    I referred you to THE PHYSICS OF HITTING. It was authored by Robert K. Adair, a Yale physics professor, not Phillip Adair. My mistake. See page 33.

    Above all when it comes to the hands, keep it simple.

  17. Djura

    Joey… I know I’ve been working hard to getting you to the dark side…. Remember I’ve not explained all the details but my pinch with the lead hand should not be understood in a vacuum… So the pinch is one point of action in many points even in the same hand… The pinch is also set up to do one thing… And if you don’t know how to set it up it can do other things that is not good… So set up is key thus the hands are used to grip so the hands are key…But the hands do more than just pinch…Also the pinch doesn’t mean you have to swing as you can fight the pinch/hands/chains and creat potential energy ready to be used elsewhere…. Additionally if you understand the fascia lines… Wherever there are hands connections involved, you can connect the hands further down that chain in order to make it appear like the hands are not doing anything… to me that depends on your move… That’s a different story… Again… We can’t see things as connection and disconnection when there isn’t one chain…. That misses the point… As I noted… The lead arm rotates and the rear arm folds….This is key… And not key in seeing it through the actions but in another way…Again… More details I’m leaving out since it seems like im already talking too much and don’t want to give the wrong impressions…

    By the way I’m leaving out a few key details…. Also I really have some questions myself but I can’t engage in those questions unless we are on the same page… Which, thus far, it appears we are not but I’m not sure…

    ~DM

  18. Djura

    Joe I’ve read that book years ago and thanks for the reference… In view of the ground up… That notion inherently and perhaps not intentionally just like many cues out there ( well intentioned of course but than argued like crazy) gives an impression that the swing is inside out which is not the best way to generate or create those forces… Also I’m suggesting there are multiple chains which I’ve not heard before or at least expressed like I’m expressing… Again… There is rotating and folding….I don’t agree with the palm up palm down teachings… Again… I have to repeat myself… One arm rotates and one arm folds so palm up Palm down doesn’t fit that mold…Also sometimes people say things but it can be misunderstood or perhaps it’s part of a culture… Josh says he first think of his hands… But he thinks of his back foot… Why? Well is that an important point in his hitting system… Well is there a point in his hands that just as important in his hands… Said anouther way… He explains his foot allows the back hip action… Well to start it’s not his rear foot but a point in his rear foot…So the body works in magical ways but not really…we are always balanced so if there is foot and hip action… Than there is hand and shoulder action… The fact is he feels it but everyone thinks of hands in an outwardly way…If I say I use my hands therefore I’m throwing my hands… I’m disconnected… NO!…I didn’t say that and that’s assuming things I didn’t say… But if you say the hands are along for the right… No there not… You already noted there are pressures and forces applied by the hands so now your saying the hands do things besides go along for the ride… You also noted that perhaps the bottom 3 STARTS the swing but than say the hands are along for the ride… You just said, the bottom 3 starts the swing and also the hands are the last link to the chain…So isn’t that confusing…. You see Joe I never grow up with all the cues so I see through some things also many play devils advocate… I’m not doing that as i say it clear I’m not disclosing all the details since I’m trying to see who understands me or agrees with me first…

    So Josh makes it a point to point out his back foot but not his hands in the same casino… And when he talks about the hands he talks about a slap swing… Kind off… Hes Mentioning the hands in context of the hands slapping the ball…. I wouldn’t either but no way I’m thinking the hands are along for the ride… Also if you swing a bat long enough you get the rear foot in there grip that bat ( using key points which ends up looking like Arron’s grip) and focus on doing damage and think this only… Have a plan from observing the pitcher and See ball hit ball…also Aaron’s grip was molded from years of swinging… So if your molded for another swing it’s best to focus on the specific points of interest and when done it ought to look like Aaron’s grip…Again I’m mentioning this for others as Joe you don’t really consider what I’m saying… That’s cool… At least thats better than Djura you played street ball, Djura your being such an engineer, Djura I’ve played pro, college or high school…

    Joe… When you say with regards to the hands keep it simple… Well that’s the problem… The ones who can do it, do it without thinking… And in baseball mostly all teachings see the hands as one thing doing one thing… If you look at the fascia lines and see 4 arm lines extending to the hands while some are connected together, some are not, the lines connect to other lines going up to the neck, going into an X pattern, going down the same side… So to start there are 4 points of interest than can apply forces… Do those for es work together or are there specific timings they fire… Do we prevent some points from firing… Shoot the same lines can link to different lines if understood… And the fact one arm rotates and one folds… How does that affect it… Again… If we think in terms of ground up and that the hands are part of one chain than yea than we can say keep it simple…but if you swing 10000 times and do it right… Yea… You’ll get a feel for it and I guess set and forget it and keep it simple… I’ll say I bet when you get I to your first slump… Your done since feel without knowing nothing… Because once you try to think your way out of a slump your thinking not feeling… And you got good swinging 10000 times and feeling… That’s how kids lose it… They think about.. So
    Ebony tells them something that at face value appears to fit and work…

    Joey I haven’t asked for much but please put out a video on how damn complicated the swing is… How the hands can get the batter in hundreds of combinations… How knowing always is better than memory… And if you always did in the right way than you dont need memory as you only do it one way… the right way… And where memory ought to be appreciated when undoing it…I’m sure as an instructor you appreciate it and all the complexities… Joe the hands are one of the most complicated thins in the swing and in anatomy… There are 3 key points that I’m leaving out in my observations and I guess I can call it my teachings since I’ve haven’t heard it before…but so many leave things out intentionally and unintentionally…

    You already noted that the hands apply pressures, Joey’s bottom 3 starts the swing and the hands are along for the ride… Your lets keep the hands simple is dangerous.. Regarding hands, You contradict yourself and than say keep it simple… Joe again, look at the fascia lines and the potential combinations… Let’s both Appreciate the complexity and the fact that the hands can be divided into parts and each part can apply forces by themselves or in combination and this also Includes your ground up chain but perhaps this can add other teaching to that teaching… At the end if there are multiple points in the hands being passive or active it doesn’t mean the other points are doing the same thing… Also… If I’m saying in order to levarage the hands correctly grip is important perhaps your simple hands approach makes my grip useless since you see the hands as one simple thing… But I’m confused you say Joeys bottom 3 starts the swing and than say the hands are along for the ride… Also if you know how to do it… You can get Joeys bottom 3 and make it your shoulder that provides that said start… Simple right… Well that depends if see the complexities in the hands now… Well just look at the the shoulder… The shoulder makes the hands look like basic math…

    ~DM

  19. kyle harrington

    DJURA..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Huda3vQUPN4

    Hands not moving in relation to torso/shoulders… pretty cool… I think the jury is out… the hands only move in an emergency swing or a major adjustment. Basically, once the swing starts rotating, u can only change the bat trajectory slightly cause its already moving fast.

    kyle

  20. kyle harrington

    Like everyone here who is passionate about figuring out the swing, I think we should , including myself, stick to the fundamentals of the swing. The things that every great
    player uses to hit the ball. The fundamentals are enough to worry about and it’s amazing how you (me) gets away from them. My son plays golf and there are a million ways to make you hit the ball bad. He recently “calmed down” and shortened and softened his shoulder turn to hit the ball 20-30 yards further. It makes no sense. He decreased his shoulder turn and hit if further and straighter. He hits the ball 300 at least once every round for the last 3 weeks. 5’7″, 130 lbs. So… size really doesn’t matter.

    so…. the body works in ways that is counterintuitive to how we perceive power generation. In my sons case, the timing and sequencing aspect of the swing far outweighs increasing the x-factor stretch. This shortening shows itself on the back end of the swing (the follow through). It was much softer and the slowed earlier with greater clubbed speed… makes no sense..right.

    So to throw this into the baseball swing conversation, sometimes less is way more. We watch MLB players swing easy in BP before the game and say… WTF.. Why swing easy when 1st at bat ur gonna go 100%. They probably don’t realize what they are doing, but they might be “making the swing simple”. As they hit some weak grounders the other way, we say WTF. They look lazy… But, just like in golf, if you get the bat moving too fast and too early, your losing power (casting) so there is some genius in the easy swings building up to bigger swings.

    So we take this to the radar setup in the garage. Wood bat 32″/30 oz. Start out swinging easy, trying slowly getting the MPH up in 1 MPH increments. Starting at 60, 62, 63,etc… So he gets to 78 mph. This is up 6mph since April. I know some 14u that hit it 90, so he’s not even close, but…. he is always going up and up… and he’s learning.

    Kyle

  21. Joe

    Kyle,

    Amen! Couldn’t agree with you more. Keep it simple. Dont jam up your brain. You can’t make yourself hit. You have to let yourself hit.

  22. Joe

    Djura,

    I’ll stay with what I said. I think that my thinking is in line with what Donaldson was saying in his discussion with Mark DeRosa on MLB. Keep it simple.

    As far as flat palms or palm up/palm down, I was referring to conntact.

  23. Djura

    Can we first frame what notions we agree or disagree… I dont think slapping at the ball is good… The hands along for the ride, throwing your hands, active hands all mean something different to me… Also if your pulling on your rubber band and turning into the ball… That may look like its nothing but it’s big time… But if your not pulling your rubber bands it’s harder to turn into the ball especially with authority…. Now I have question for Joey… Does the rubber bands and I think we all know what I’m talking about… Do they lose energy if you pull them and hold during the stance or is it best to pull they and GO…

    Again … First of all if we dont understand the effects that grip has on body movements and movement patterns than we will be running in circles…The fact is the hands and finger tips (and feet to a lesser extent) receives, interprets, mitigates, manipulates and has incredible influences on the overall swing and human motion… What is clear is that the arm lines as they are laid out has communication to the rest of the body that influences motion…Again.. The whole.. It’s goes along for the ride nonsense is like saying you just free fall… It’s not that simple… It all starts with the grip… Grip is so important but over looked…

    also I’m addressing the whole the hands are passive or ” along for the ride”… They are not passive and along for the ride is loaded because to start we have to know how to let that happen like striding… Still… The hands can do and should do more…

    ~DM

  24. Joey Myers

    Thanks ALL for contributing to the heated discussion about the purpose of the hands.

    Hands are obviously important to the swing, they’re what’s connecting what the hitter is holding in their hand to the coupled motion of the spine and the springy fascia.

    Like Homer Kelly said in his book The Golfing Machine, the hands are like clamps on the club.

    Torquing the handle or using finger pressure is connecting hands/bat to the center of rotation, which is SUPER crucial for most young hitters.

    And as Kyle pointed out, the sequence of movements matter. The hands can help keep an effective sequence.

    I guess when gauging the value of the hands, we have to define what outcome we’re looking at…

    For example, grip and finger pressure are HIGHLY valuable at impact. Poor grip and “loose” hands will open up a Pandora’s box of swing flaws.

    In a couple weeks, I’m going to do a video on some cool Gymnastic finger, hand, and wrist stretches/strengtheners that I’m learning right now.

    Keep up the discussion fellas.

    And yes Bob, quite a few coaches still teach their hitters to hit the ball on the ground :-/

  25. Djura

    By the way… I watched the video reference… I stopped it early… i didn’t get any thing out of it… To start when saying the elbow… Well the elbow is part of many chains… He would not say what chain but he clearly wouldn’t know unless he left it out for some strange reason… We can move our parts in a plurality of ways… I can make my back elbow move in the exact same way using over 10 and more different actions and forces…

    Also… Pete Rose would not be a good model for the high level swing because he lacks power and that power part will make his swing lose influences that affect movement patterns…

    My lead elbow is bad ass… That’s all I have say… I would never think about it… I don’t know why that guy was talking about some point the elbow here or there….Actually… I would not really think about much at the plate… The fact is if you do it right you never think of the lead elbow or arm… So it is misleading to say I point my elbow here or there… I don’t point it it GETS POINTED… Just like I dont mess around with bugs… But if there’s a bug underneath my rear foot… Well…

    Except triggering the start of my swing with my lead hand and triggering the end of my swing with the rear hand.. One arm rotates and one arm folds…The lead hand gets you across the zone and the pinch can focus that… Two pinches and both do many things… Well there are more “pinches” in the set up…

    Again… The Hands are active as it seems everyone agrees but than say they do nothing… Can somebody see how that is communicated…

    The hands are active…

    ~DM

  26. Djura

    Joey I know your busy but I know you look at the comments but for some reason don’t make any remarks on mine… Please do as I always appreciate your advice and teachings… But if I say the hands fight… Can we see the bigger picture… If the hands are fighting… Then what lines are fighting… What points of the hands… And wouldn’t that mean OTHER points in that line are fighting… Take that in please… If I’m wrong than sorry but if I’m right… It’s misleading to communicate Hand torques in a Not that big of a deal thing…Another way of saying… If you say bottom hand torque or top hand torque… What are we really saying… And if we work are way up and down those lines what is that torque doing to the feet… If nothing… Either try again or bust out a form roller or message ball and get to work…

    Also… Joey please include somewhere how most cues are bad because they are seeing outside – in and telling conclusions.. Those cues are telling us what is happening but like my lead arm/elbow… It’s not a teaching point but an observation one… Things GET done or undone…My lead arm gets to where it needs to be… I never thought about it until I heard it..

  27. Djura

    Another angle about the hands are at set up… So a sequence of pressures can lock your fascia lines for only certain movements or timing. Said another way… You can coordinate fascia lines like dominos which blows my mind… Again I haven’t disclosed all that in detail because I’m trying to get the coordination down with others… So the hands are not passive and in the grip there is series of pressures in specific orders…For some it’s there because they molded their bodies but dont even know it… Which leads to issues….

    The other funny thing if we throw our hands..what are we throwing the hands with… We can’t throw our hands with hands…can we…

    CUES!!!

    ~DM

  28. Kyle

    Djura… the hands (actually wrists) are the last connection to the bat. They are just a lever. They can’t add to a good swing 1 mph of batspeed. Actually, if the hands are used as a “power developer”, the bat will move slower than if it is used as a pivot / hinge. It’s very important to know that because the physics are undeniable. It’s a fact. The debate on that could fill volumes and its proven. Active wrists don’t add to power in a high level swing.

    Btw… Golfers NEVER talk about using their hands. Whether a long drive champ or Jim Furyk. They know the hands are used as a crutch to save a shot (and most of the time they can’t cause the club is moving 115 mph).

    So, golfers don’t use hands for power and I’ve never heard a pitcher say Im using my hands or wrist to snap the ball (on a fastball). Bowler… they don’t add control or power with wrist. It’s a force couple.

    So, based on physics….

    Even if u believe that the hands have a function other than holding the bat and creating a force couple, you still have to come up with a starting point for the swing. It’s not the hands. When the wrists start to break from the release of the force couple, you can’t change the bats path.

    The further the body goes through the swing sequence, the less you can control the final segment.

    I feel that if the hands and bat are positioned like 95 % of MLB hitters when the front foot lands, you can forget them.

    That all being said, the hands must be held in a position near the back shoulder and the wrists must keep a 90¬į wrist cock for an effective release of the wrists.

    Kyle

  29. Djura

    Ok… Seriously stop with this ganging up thing and team physics and team “it’s all in the hands thing”… Theres no teams…. And framing it that way leads to sweeping assumptions but that’s can’t happen since comment so much… Funny… Baseball discussions usual have so many strawmans and other fallacies…again… My startments have not been addressed but some straw has been… Obviously somebody says lets make dominos with fascia lines and he gets bombed with questions and challenge to prove it… Oh wait… That didn’t happen!!! Funny…

    You said that Actually wrist are the last connection to the bat… My fingers respectfully disagree with you… You obviously didn’t mean that literally…I see the bat as an extension of you in a rotator way and not part of you in a linear way… Kind off… And part of an arm rotates and part of an arm folds….but this goes away from what’s important…. To start… In order to make my points I’m trying to go away from the old terms like hands as I see that as too broad and confusion in my modeling… In order to remove any incorrect inferences… So what do we do… Say forget that I love making incorrect inferences… Just saying the hands do this or that is not good enough when speaking of the high level swing…so if I’m getting more specific and your oversimplifiing it… Well look to the cues… It’s hard to have the ability to distinguish the relevant from the irrelevant… To start… Multiple arm lines ( points of actions in the hands) means grip had to be one of the most important teachings…can we leverage and feel or engage all those lines with our points in our hands… If so… We are good… If not… Why not… Look at where those lines go… And than how they affect adjacent lines…

    Hands/wrist can’t add 1 mph… Is that a test…1 mph…there are indirect forces that are engaged in the hands that are over 1 mph…. Come on now… What’s next the little finger muscles are so small… Seriously…

    Power developer…. Have you not seen little people crush balls… Power develops in a multiple of ways… It’s the coordination of all of them along with not losing it that is key…. Also it’s how we engage our muscle… Notice the lack of plurality… If the hands are used as power development rather than a pivot / hinge.. Well that’s a fallacy… But I see why you make that inference… Let’s say it another way… If the 8 points of actions are used as power development rather than a pivot/hinge… WAIT… 8 points two options… Why can’t we do both!!!! Said another way… Why can’t we use our hands to pivot and power development….. Physics are undeniable… It’s a fact… It’s also a fact that I’ll take my physics which is the right physics with proper context than your physics… The fact is there is one set of physics that still needs to be solved and it has nothing to do with what we are talking about… Believe I got the physics… I’m not being a smart ass… I could but I’m here to talk about the baseball swing…and the fact is I’m getting ganged up on…the wrist are active but difficult to see…and it depends on what is meant by active…

    Golfers this or that… Well ever since I picked up a bat a few years ago I’ve been trying to find my swing from the days from Queens… Joey shed light with the fascia…. An indirect quote of Ben Hogan talking about a lead hand pinch and what it does… And why he didn’t add it to his 5 teachings or whatever it was… Well he didn’t want to let the world know it… Again… Just like everything else I can take one swing and know it… Back foot what… One swing… Hell no… Throw your hands… One swing… Hell no…cut it here… What….knob here… What… No… Step with your foot here… No stop looking at it from outside… Pinch this… One swing…Fuck me… That’s it… And the fascia lines explains it…

    So I know where to go with this.. Please explain you force couple…

    So I take your golfer which didn’t prove anything and raised you Ben Hogan which doesn’t mean anything but sure is funny!!!!!

    Force couple… Do you mind making that clear for me…

    ~DM

  30. Djura

    Again we are moving away from where I wanted to go…

    Force couple is important but I need to know your understanding first… Golfers… I raised to Ben hogan which is by far a mic drop but that means nothing because even hogan could be wrong but my oh yea and my one swing test was enough for me…Pitchers… Well this pisses me off… How often I hear somebody who thinks it’s awesome to say pitching is like hitting… Hell yes it is…And I hear statements that would contradict that premise….I find it that most who use it use it to sound like they know something… When throwing what does the lead hand do… When kicking a ball what do you do with the lead hand…Well that should shed light on grip and how 8 points of action and we can assign names to the points as a better way to communicate…. Again… Apply force to your finger tips and push you pubic bone and it’s like a magnet…. As opposed to slow motion…

    So based on physics… Of course… Not on the movements or actions….The hands do more than hold the bat and force couple… WAIT! The hands do more yes and force couples… WAIT! Plural… FORCE COUPLES… Plurality… Let’s say it this way… The 8 points of action apply a plurality of force couples… As the mind exploded and I drop the mic… No seriously there are a plurality of force couples in order to coordinate the fascia lines… But seeing the hands as one unit applying one force is misleading… If you look at your hand a rotate it… The top part can push while the bottom pulls… But that doesn’t tell you the story either but sheds light to its complexity… Wait.. If the hands have points of action than what about the feet…Squish the bug fails to see all the fascia lines or else we wouldn’t even have people considering it forget try it….once the bat is released its released unless your intentions is not to do damage… Seriously are we shy to swing a bat… Go find another sport… Or else do some damage…You mean the last force couple right ?

    The 95 thing…if you don’t get the plurality of force couples which there is no way you than when I say I grip the bat to leverage agaist my lines and set it and forget it and all I have to do is engage it all with a pinch….I’m telling you… We are looking at a coffe cup… And the handle is in front of me hidden and we are debating if this cup has a handle… Uhhhh… Welllllllllll… I’m pretttttty sure this cup got a handle… Well how do you know…. Uhhhh… I see it!
    ~DM

  31. Djura

    Ok… Why does the hands go to the back shoulder… I know why… But it should be noted that we wind up to the back shoulder so if we don’t hip hinge or bend the knees… Blah…blah..blah… If we don’t flex the right way than the hands ( they 8 end points) will not wind back correctly…. So how do you release the wrist cock…. There are many good ways…

    Snd Joey you mentioned shoulder movement… I know we discussed a switch with a rear shoulder move… A clip of Sheffield comes to mind… I use to have that violet bat move… I winded my hands and for arms up to the shoulders.., so my bat would move that just made pitchers scared based on shoulder fighting…. WHAT? Can I say that… Can we say it’s all in the shoulder fighting.. Well that’s not true it’s all in the hands… No… No… No… It’s all in the hips…. No… No…we need strong legs…. No… It’s the core….I think I said it’s all in the feet, hands, tail bone and neck… Because it is and that because that’s basically the whole system…. It’s all in coordination!!!! That’s the fact as I see it… And it’s all in having good balance… Good posture!!! I think….. But there’s one thing that makes sense… If you apply force to your finger tips and push with your core it’s like a magnet. Said anouther way if you know how to use your hands…. It should all fall in place… You just have to be athletic so you can wind up but you can use your hands to wind up and set it (lines) and have it set in your posture ( not good, think back pain and lost of real power) and just pinch it yo engaged it…. Of course there is more….

    ~DM

  32. Djura

    I’m not sure why I
    Going hear as I’m getting ganged up on… But if we say we apply medium pressure or high or low pressure in our grip…. What does that mean in one unit… Are we engaging all the fascia lines at the same force… Let’s say a medium grip… That means we engage both ends of all the arm lines at a medium tension or force… Well if we say we have 8 points of actions than we can say this is medium and that is soft and that is strong….
    Mae if we say the hands fight… Well is it both ends of the arm lines are fighting… Well back to points… It’s this point and that point that fights”…. Wait this point fights that point which loads that line and pulls another line loading that line…WHAT!!!
    Set it up and actively pinch it…. Off course we can pinch up the line… At a shoulder or somewhere else….

    ~DM

  33. Joe

    Djura,

    Man, keep it simple. Good hitters likely do all of the things we discussed here. And, likely they wouldn’t be able to discuss it as well as Josh Donaldson did. For a hitter to think about the things you mention in just one of your posts would completely tie the left and right hemispheres of his brain up in knots.

  34. Kyle

    DM,

    If hitting is getting more and more confusing for you, the more that you learn, I would take a step back. If this statement makes you angry, I would not read any further…

    Hitting should get more clear with time, not less. From your responses it seems like there are no absolutes in the swing.

    You would do yourself a favor by keeping it simple, staying one topic. The topic was the “hands” and that’s the only one.

    Of course there are grip options, pressure options, etc. Some grips allow the force couple to release better than others. But this is not what the topic was.

    Let’s keep to the topic so a discussion can occur.

    Here are the only possibilities for the hands:

    1. They push the hinge open, or they react to a force couple and open like a pendulum. It’s one or the other. And we are talking a perfectly timed swing, not an adjustment.

    2. They can control bat path independently of arms once the barrel starts accelerating , or not. Again, on a perfectly timed ball.

    Everything else is a distraction to this conversation. U need to come to your own ansolutes, else, there will be no end to understanding. That being said, there are guys like Jeter that push the hands into the ball. You can be good, and push the hands . But it’s one in a million…. or even more.

    When u watch the pete rose video, the hands are fixed in space in front of the back shoulder till impact. So the hands did not move. THAT BEING SAID, THAT DOESN’T MEAN THEY ARNT FIGHTING THE INERTIA OF ROSE ROTATING AND ARE LOOSE AND FLOPPY. THEY ARE ACTIVELY FIGHTING TO STAY WHERE THEY ARE AT UNTIL THE FORCE COUPLE BREAKS AND THE BAT ACCELERATES.

    If you keep your response short, and on topic, and I will gladly reply… kyle

  35. Kyle

    Off topic……My son always asks me….”how can he do this or that?” Usually regarding a sports figure doing some amazing catch, or a throw or a dunk, etc…

    My answer has always been…. “Cause he can”… and I say that because you can’t do things that have never even entered your mind. You don’t even see the posibility of it happening. The Jeter backup play is one of them. Jeter anticipated the throw being bad and he would be up the 1st base line for the possible play, that’s why he made one of the greatest plays in baseball history. ……

    if u can’t envision it, u can’t do it. Then the physical part comes in to play. I’d say most don’t even see the posibility.

    Larry Bird did not become one of the greatest passers ever because of physical ability. The pass physically is easy, the knowing where and when to do it is the hard part. Gretzky too. Their anticipation was off the chart.

    Same thing with hitting… nothing different… at all…. The pitcher has curve and fastball. Your mind envisions both. One is coming at you… and you have a plan for that one. The other is coming 90 and you can picture it…. mental toughness required.

  36. Djura

    You want facts… It’s a fact there are multiple force couples in the hands to get the fascia lines in some type of dominos or in auto mode…It’s a fact that the bottom hand with the fingers gets the bat head in the zone from inside to outside…. And the top hand unfolds at the desired height…meaning we want rotational and linear which should be understood… It’s a fact that for most things works in more than one way… If we see the points of action in the hands and feet… It’s NOT that complicated… Trying to talk about things that apparently some don’t understand and than add the fact that in a discussion, my points are not really considered… Yea this doesn’t make…

    Fascia lines or how about balls of energy fighting each other…

    What I’m trying to say… Is the balls of energy is there….there are multiple forces acting when set up correctly… All we have to do is tap the mouse traps ( plural) and let the body, gravity and whatever do its things… But that means the hands have to start it… If your finger touches a mouse trap and that trap has a strong snap… It weird to say that the finger is doing ALL the work or the finger is NOT doing anything…Also OF COURSE you can work your way down that fascia line but if you don’t know which line it is than than we are guessing… Going into the details makes it easier not more complicated…

    The fact is I’m not sure what I’m doing hear… I’m trying to get beyond this.. I’m not confused… I knew everything pointed out by everyone else….

    My major point was if we see the hands ( feet too) as having multiple balls of energy and having multiple outlets… Than and only than talking hands makes more sense…saying lets talk hands and not the other stuff is like saying lets talk physic and leave out the math… The hands are connected to just about everything and they feel and sense and do a plurality of things…. At the end it WAS the details that got me that feel back… And those details lead me to see posture, reflexes, instincts, plasticity of the body, real connection, fake flexion (feet, wrist…etc), real power, muscle memory, Leaning on my bones, resistance and most important…. Perspective…

    Your saying keep it simple… Sure… Squish the bug… Throw your hands… Is that simple enough… I’m saying those cues are not good base on the fact they misleading and poorly understood just like saying ” hands”… Go ahead look at the fascia lines and the connections… I’m not making it complicated… When I say the Aaron grip is great… I can’t possible explain why if we see both hands as solely just ” HANDS”….

    What I’m saying is using the term hands ( feet) is no different than saying squish the bug… Load your hips…

    I’m taking what your saying and mostly agreeing with it and separating it and point it out so we can better communicate the bilateral and combinations and so on… If I’m losing you… No worries… Just look into the details… I’m trying to point out the things left out in my view but if we say the hands to this it’s hard to say the hands does this too and that… But I thought just taking the hands term out and breaking it down even further would give us better tools to discuss this but it looks like some are just in default mood…And pull out memorized remarks… And say I’m team linear… Team no hands… Blah… Blah…I’m telling you from my perspective… The complicated spect is seeing the big picture and understanding how it can be missed not I’m confused… I’m not… I do these things… It’s not me who is confused when people say things I don’t understand I don’t bust out argument 3 or 4… I say … Why?

    So why do you think I’m confused l…what did I say to make you think that I’m confused… The details make it clear for me… And if I’m right, I know how easy it is to miss it… That’s why I hate most cues and why most of my points have to do with how things are phrased and communicated…

    Joey… Do you mind making a comment… Shit… Everyone is ganging up on me and you haven’t commented on one of my remarks for awhile… I’m not hear for this discussion… I wanted to take my observations which I thought would be interested based on my angles thrown in and perhaps I can shed some other thoughts… Not debating the above…

    ~DM

  37. Joe

    Djura,

    I think what Kyle said about absolutes is the way to go. He said:

    “Hitting should get more clear with time, not less. From your responses it seems like there are no absolutes in the swing.”

    I couldn’t agree with him more. Once you establing those “absolutes,” stick with them. Hitting is difficult enough without creating uncertainty in the mind of a hitter, particularly a young hitter. After all, “Hitting a baseball is the single most difficult thing to do in sports.” Ted Williams wouldn’t have said that if it wasn’t the case. And, he was good at it too.

  38. Djura

    Seriously… You guys are like the people Joey Rant against… You make no sense… I’m complicated… Yes I know… I’m not here trying to figure out addition and subtraction… And I know your stuff already… And I’m not stopping there as you are… That’s cool as I respect that…I’m not here trying to show you your wrong or to make myself feel good by knocking someone else down…I’m not here trying to tell a kid to look at fascia lines…I’m here trying to take Joeys stuff which I did and go with it… The fact is this stuff is the stuff I did… Again… I did this.. Some never did and some are modifing there swing as now they are learning more… But if you did this… Why modify it? For what? But doing it and knowing it is different…

    You are not here for the baseball swing… If I want to…when you say physics I can crush you with physics… Or anything else… But I wasn’t here for that and I wouldn’t want to do that anyway…But you guys have been debating way to much …that you forgot how it was just to brainstorm or have a discussion…you go into defense mode way to fast…

    Absolutes… Do you not hear yourself… I’m saying you can’t see the hands ( both) as doing one thing as there are 8 points of actions… Even if all 8 are doing the same things, they go from different directions…Parts of the hands are connected differently… And those 8 points can do some weird stuff….

    You have to know how to connect those parts which is not a hands or body thing… It’s hands and body… Than we have the shoulders… Blah. Blah… You can’t connect in all spaces….Absolutes is the problem… That is WHY most cues don’t work…

    Here’s an ABSOLUTE : the more you KNOW; the more questions you have… And that’s why I have questions and the same reason I can’t ask you.. But because I have more questions don’t think for a second im confused… It’s you that are confused… And it’s you that is confusing me…

    TED didn’t have all the answers… Do you not read Joeys stuff… Also STOP point at people….By the way… Jeter and the Yankees practiced that play… The awesome thing about that play was they PRACTICED it… And than he knew what to do when it happened… Not that it happened…because who the hell practices that play… Well the champs! I’m a Yankee fan from Queen go figure…

    Look if you haven’t noticed Joey hasn’t commented on my stuff but I see my influence or at least some angles… At some point when I’m getting ganged up on and nobody wants to have the discussion I’m trying to have than…. Well it’s UNDERSTOOD… But at least this is called hitting performance lab where sciences and experiments rule… Not resumes… I get resumes at the sports complex…And stick ball doesn’t resonate much these days… Shit back in queens they have deed restricted blocks and nobody plays out in the streets no more…I get it…bricking Windows and all… But in the 80’s…, you can walk the streets and see baseball played in every other block… For me that was like looking at a mountain top… And the best thing was no adults were around… And I’ll tell you… Those kids were good real good… Not Like what I see today… But than again they played because they wanted to play… Unless you lived on my block.. If we needed one and you went to get bread for dinner… Well…mom will be pissed as she will be getting cold and half eaten bread by the time you come home at sunset… Because your our last player… You can’t say no…and damn fresh hot European bread… Everybody took a piece because you can’t let that go cold…by the way… We played every day for hours…

    I have tons of observations and I’m interested in baseball and the science… So at least you can know where I came from…later..Hope all is well…

    ~DM

    • Joey Myers

      Djura, I do really value your opinion, especially coming from the engineering background that you have. Also, it’s good you’re raising these questions…and questions others may not have on their radar just yet.

      The challenge I have with reading and replying to every comment you post is that I don’t have the time right now because there are just too many of them. Not a bad thing, I just don’t have the time with running the business side of things and all…although I try and skim them the best I can.

      I think what others on this thread are struggling with is that it seems you’re in a philosophical stage in your learning the swing, which is great. But at times, it seems you’re talking in circles, and repeating ideas but in different form.

      What I’d like to see is to take your technical and science background, and do some physical swing experiments. Once you can validate some of what you’re saying, I’d love to run over it with you. And it’s not just you Djura, but I just don’t have time for philosophy and theory anymore. I like putting ideas to the test. Otherwise, it can turn into a peeing contest, people getting upset because their ideas aren’t gaining significance with others, etc.

      I know you want to bounce your ideas off others, and my advice is to be more concise with your thoughts and less wordy in your comments and you’ll get more feedback. With the amount of comments I get on the socials and on my website, if I wrote like you do (which I used to), I’d never get work done during the day. So I’ve learned to be more tidy with my thoughts. Just my two cents Djura. Sorry if anyone offended you on this thread. I can assure you that’s not their intention, and there are quite a few very educated readers at my site, yourself included.

  39. Joe

    Djura,

    I echo what Joey said. Keep it simple.

    Btw, saw your comment about the Jeter play (I assume it’s the backhand flip play vs the A’s in the playoffs). Yes, they do practice that play, likely in spring training, and, yes, he made a great play. However, though he wound up where he was supposed to be, he got there late, thus forcing him to resort to the backhand flip to Posada to nail Jeremy Giambi at the plate. In matter of fact, the Yankees as a whole messed up that play. Knoblauch was where he was supposed to be but Tino Martinez was out of position. Of course, Shane Spencer overthrew everybody. And Joe Torre covered for everybody with the media when he should have just set the record straight. Practiced that play with my teams many times.

    The point, we’re all trying to get the record straight here. Joey has done an incredible job here to educate people about hitting. So, keep it simple, though I am aware of the complexity of the subject matter we deal with here, and, in that way, we can all help each other.

    • Joey Myers

      Thanks Joe for the comment. It’s crucial to remain objective here, it’s hard for me too…I have to constantly be revisiting the question, “What don’t I know?” Sometime we (myself included) can get stuck to our own way of doing/thinking things, and can get too biased (or closed minded) on other thoughts. My hope for all of us is to continue on our quest for the truth, bringing in thoughts and hard evidence to support it.

  40. Djura

    Thanks Joey… Well said… Obviously I wouldn’t be here if I didn’t appreciate your work…I think your the very best out here and I’ve looked around…. The fact that you test things and give away so much good free content is telling… Once I saw you look body movements I knew that was what I needed to explain what I do..

    I’ll try to keep my comments on point… Saying that…I’ll try to keep things on the fascia lines. I don’t know how many followers will like to too…

    I’m interested in that force couple as I’ve read many different things… The hardest thing for me is to comment on something when I don’t know where your coming from… So force couple from the cocked wrist … It’s like well let’s take that down there lines but than I don’t know what was mean… So what breaks the couple… I think I know the best way as there are many ways… But at the end I would think its best to break down the arm lines I order to see the bigger picture…

    For me knowing how to leavage the bat with the ground is key and obviously that starts with grip which as noted above with the different grips is not a one size for thing not is it that our hands are different… I like Aaron’s grip, Bonds grip and Mantles grip and they all seem to have really good posture… And there grips seem similar not the same but than again there postures where not the same…

    At the end my motivation would be to express how I think we can set up the myofascial meridians with our hands as some type of dominoes and once set we can easily coordinate…. Also how the batter ought to feel the swing as circular, tight and pretty much working with the downwardly and upwardly actions… Also I would really like to get into compression… I feel like you ought feel like your compressing the ball… I think I can explain this with the fascia lines…and I guess the physics…either way I’ll keep my comments as little as possible and hopefully we can talk about the details…

    At the least…Joey can’t we agree that saying HANDS was last years teachings… Just saying hands seems like a loaded term… For me one of the biggest mistakes we see in youth is kids who don’t know what to do with the hands…For me… If you don’t know how to work the hands you can’t get that nice baseball pose… With a great bent back leg… You can’t block correctly… Obviously you can work your way down the hands but if you can follow the energy to the hands it’s telling…Anyway here I go again and I’m sure there are hundreds shaking there heads… No… No… No…

    ~DM

  41. Djura

    Also whenever watching a game.. So many MLB have there postures ingrained but we can still spot them setting up the lines and even some you can see it big time… Watch the body movements when setting up… The shoulder and elbows… The lead hand pointing to the pitcher… The back knee turn and the hand twist…How they get there back foot in the ground… Watch some of Chaplens rear foot getting into the ground… All of these are basically setting up auto mode… In my view…

    The biggest problem with slow motion is they don’t start when the batter enters the box… You know my point is you wind up and they go… So we don’t really get to see the batters wind up in slow motion and as I said I think it’s all ingrained in there postures…

    Alright I’m out for awhile… Later..

    ~DM

  42. Joe

    Joey,

    After all, a hitter still has to go out there and hit. If he had to think about all of this, his brain would literally explode! A hitter has to settle on a set of absolutes as Kyle recommended in one of his posts above. Once the mental and physical preparation has been done, it’s time to put it in the back of your head (more accurately at the base of your brain) and trust yourself.

    I think Donaldson did a pretty good job explaining what he did. At least his comments reflected that he has sought to understand the intricacies of the/his swing and that he has made the effort from a mental standpoint.

  43. Djura

    Joe… You keep missing my point… The complex part is figuring out what is happening… I would see ball hit ball… Let me say it again… I remember seeing Pete Rose video…. I set it all up and just tapped the mouse trap… The hard thing is back tracking and actually trying to teach someone else what I’m doing… Or not swinging a bat for 20 years and thinking how did I do this… Again it’s all set up… Even if I was so early and my lead lead is bending and doing what ever I’m just think when do I pinch by lead leg is doing what it’s doing… Shoot I can almost fall to the ground but one I set off the mouse trap… The body does its thing and keeps me from falling down… Knowing what I’m doing is complicated…I dont know what to say… But before I knew about fascia lines it was impossible for me to explain so I’ll take complicated agaist impossible any day… At the end it feels like I’m explaining see ball hit ball… Believe I’m leaving some stuff out… But that just adds to the complexity… Have you every bench pressed… What do you do right before while your gripping the bar… And when you lift… Think about that and think about your upper chest… Have you ever seen a batter twirl the bat from being pointed at the pitcher to the back shoulder area and take a big breath…. Again there is more… Have you ever looked into the forefinger… Notice the forefinger works differently if the wrist is bent… And if you bend one wrist and pinch than the other wrist gets bent and puff gravity and finger tip grip lets it go sort off… There more… It’s all set up and you NEVER think but see ball hit ball… Meaning once you set it up its the LEAST complicated thing to do… Doing anything else seems weird…it’s like I can fall forever and just watch the ball come to me like a 1st baseman… Watch a 1st baseman catch a ball.. He goes to the ball… And catches it… I just fall coward and watch the ball with my eyes and my head goes where it goes and turn into the ball… I never think about snything else until I had to explain it….Agsin your missing the point… It’s all in the set up and than just practicing just like catch… I arm goes here and there and there… I don’t think no more I just catch it all… I do t think any more I hit it all and everywhere and HARD…

    So your right JOE my head is about to explode because I’m trying to explain it…Funny…

    Ok.. Wait.. I just took a bat and swong it your way… And now my way… Yep… My way is better… You try… Oh wait… You don’t understand what I’m doing… Seriously try to see it… I’m not saying my hands are superman hands… Try locking in your fascia lines using your hands… Shit this just isn’t going to happen… It’s too complicated unless I was right in front of you… Watch some players as they move in the box.. Watch them move their joints… They are presetting there lead leg lateral line… They are moving there knees so there spiral lines can do there things… It’s so hard to explain while typing on a phone… Sorry but at some point in just going to give up and I know what you think… How can you be so sure… Tell me something I should do thTvwill change my swing I have yet to here anything that would make me change my approach… The fact is we will look at the same thing and just see different things… No worries just don’t mis summarize what I’m saying… So if understood… We just set it and forget it and as you lift up you lead and have so infighting ( hands… Shoulders whatever your style) you just see ball hit ball…

    ~DM

  44. Djura

    By the way the grip helps but it’s all about the so called ” muscle memory”… Once your hitting posture is set… It’s hard to retrain… So if you never used your lead hand.. Good luck… Just a little fraction of movement elsewhere sets off the coordination… This is why I dont like tees…its seem impossible to use the bottom hand unless really focused on it… Why would you the ball is right there besides you NOT out in front of you… Being right there besides you feels like I’m going oppo…than put it inside that that feels strange.. The balls inside but right next to me… Weird!!!!

    Ok I’m being funny now… Seriously let’s put this to rest… We just respectfully disagree… I’ll try my best to just add some angles if I can and short comments but let’s put a fork in this one and for sake of argument your right it’s too complicated… Hope all is well… Later…

    ~DM

  45. Djura

    By the way if your trying this… Watch Micky, Bonds and Aaron to start… Watch as there hands don’t start as high as others and watch as usually there hands GET ( think shoulders and bottom 3’s) pushed down and get PULLED back up maybe night than where they started but maybe they didn’t as Joey stated about getting shorter… Again this shit is difficult but if we were investigating the arm lines and watch slow motion of Aaron we can ask what lines are engaged when Aaron pushes his hands down… Agsin I hate the word drops.. Drops makes it seem like it’s falling … If your pushing or pulling a line than at some point those hands push back up when they reach the end of that rubber band..

    ~DM

  46. Djura

    Man.. So many angles on this so for your its complicated point.. Yes I haven’t told my 8 year old son about this but that’s not the point… I’m not telling him to focus on other things that removes trail and errors and I’ll get him in the area for him to figure it out… Again I don’t know how to teach it… But I don’t tell my don’t to step foward or to swing up, level or down… I showed him how we have two hands and the hands are in different parts of the body and one is in top of the other and one is attached to a long type ark while the other is attached to a super bent tight V arm… So I told him just think of hitting the ball as like throwing a ball you will get a feel… He’s 8 and got it… I think it’s mostly NATURAL and we the cues and teachings teach it out… So I barely tell him anything but I look for clues to what he’s doing…

    It’s not that complicated but the moves are suttle…ok enough on this as I don’t know what else to say and if your trying this and it’s not working as I explain it than perhaps I’m wrong… No worries…

  47. Joe

    Djura,

    Ok, I believe we had this discussion before. Mantle, Aaron, and Bonds all had different approaches to hitting. Are you saying that because this is the case that there are no uniform rules that apply to hitting? Perhaps the first, at least one of the first hitting instructors to coin the term, “rotational hitting,” Mike Epstein, discussed the difference between a hitter’s “style” and his “technique.” Yes, all of those hitters had different “styles” but shared a similar “technique.” Is that what you are getting at? Yes, they all have different “styles,” just like they have different fingerprints. So, what’s your point?

  48. Djura

    Joe I know if what I’m saying seems like I’m going in circles or seems like there’s no absolutes which makes it seem like I can say anything and force it to read as “sound” or ” “reasonable”…. I’m not trying to do that as its hard to explain it all over my phone especially if we come from different perspectives…

    I think style is key… So in terms of style what is meant by style… So I know it sounds like here I go again first hands now style…. So my preamble is there is one high level swing… Yes… I don’t want to debate this as I know I hear many people say hitting is not a cookie cutter approach… Well yes and no… Two people with different posture may have to either get there posture the same or integrate the swing to there different postures… Said another way the high level swing is the same… Meaning all things being equal the swing is the same and if things are not equal you have to know the one swing or else it appears like there are different ways to do it when in fact it all comes from the one swing and than it branches off from that but to a lesser extent… So again… One swing period…

    So what I would say is all of those batters noted above really derived there swing from the high level swing…so at some point they all get to the same positions… The position where you inherently feel like your going to unleash a big old can of DAMAGE… But there stance and movements go along with the high level swing except they are pulling, squeezing, pinching, throwing, getting strong a little differently… So many say they have different styles and get into that hitting postion… I’m saying they are winding up at different points and some are pulling the rubber band harder ( Bonds) while others are pulling the bands lighter while some may just pull and hold the bands but there swings are just at different stages… So when you say they have different styles… They are all coordinating the same and they all yank at their lines a little differently which means the “balance of coordination” which is the only way I can express it are different and that could be style but they are within the high level swing just not in total balance…

    Now one thing people fail to realize about the steroid era besides the obvious is the body gets hit hard not only in one leg or so called “muscle”…. Most who have total workouts and take steroids have really really good balance and thus posture… In my view Bonds pulling his lines harder than anyone… His pump is down and the body pushes it back up… Again Bonds did not worry about his hands going back up or bringing his ” hands” to the right spot as he was getting shorter…. It just GETS in the right place when he’s in the hitting position… He’s just waiting to hit as it all happens…So Bonds coordinated it all better than everyone and that is why with the steroids he WAS the best… And I mean ever… Which sucks… I sure love Aaron and Micky and Lou G…. Aaron shows us we don’t have to have perfect posture nor do we have to pull our lines as Bonds did… so for example Harper pulls them hard too but he really leans into it compared to Bonds… So they are all doing the same thing and going along with the same principles… Again the same principles… So said another way… If we don’t see the same principles in play but just different styles getting to the same hitting position we can destroy a kid…

    For example when kids are moving up to better pitching… If they have an open stance and does everything right as the above players …

    well better pitching just means the pit her are better at disrupting the batters timing… The swing has nothing to do with it but how many would close that kid off and mess with the swing going away from the principles because that’s just style…

    Again I don’t want to comment forever and question everything we see to how we see the HANDS or now how we see style…

    And Joey sorry for the thousand words I don’t mean to comment forever and really I don’t have time for this either… Hope all is well and I hope I’m at least adding new angles to everyone’s thoughts…

    ~DM

  49. Djura

    So Joe you keep on getting fixed on having me state an absolute… Notice that leaves out the possibility that the absolute is that there isn’t one but that’s not what I’m saying… So to give you my thoughts…my absolute is there is one model for the high level swing… One… Only one… And all other swings are derived from said one swing… We see it varying for many reasons…Because of posture… Size…Teachings or misunderstandings… For a plurality of reasons…So if we know the swing, one right, than all we worry about is timing and to make sure the batter works on keeping his/ her posture with the swing.. Perhaps the swing can be modeled to the batters personality… So if you have a batter with ADHD who can’t sit still… Well an open stance with lots of movement within the one swing is best… Some people can’t focus if they are moving so it’s best to close them off… Again this is going into a thousand directions yet again… But when people fixate on a particular part of the body that can only work if they see the bigger picture only… Said again I do have an absolute which is there is one high level swing….And all of those batters swing from that one swing… So there style is more of how they coordinate and power there swing… Some leave power on the table…So an open stance can be eye dominance that integrates the high level swing… But eye dominance opens another can of worms… Alright I’m out… Later…

  50. Djura

    We are going off topic… Saying the hands do nothing but just hold the bat is misleading … Saying they push or pull is a half truth… If you understand how they are connected than you can see through what people are saying and will even understand why they say it…So said another way, by understanding their perspective I understand why some say what they say…

    About the video…Point one… Josh is asked questions which he dismisses… Like I don’t think about that at all… Two… He actively stayed his back foot… He said he thinks of his foot in order to get to his back hip… All I’ll say is flip that and you get some answers… He said he doesn’t feel his arm… Does he mean he’s not thinking of his arm or elbow just like his back knee… Again… He starts from his foot to his hip… Than he said lead side mechanics is so important and not in a I don’t think about it so he’s mindful of it… To me that means he’s active there…I wonder how… And you can hit up your line and hold it and wait fractions of a second… He said he wants to get the back hip and scap load coordinated basically… Man there is a little more… But I’m tired of trying… If you can see it’s what you do but just a bit more… Not that much different… Later Joe…

    Sorry for the long comments Joey… I know Joey you understand and this angle just may be different or said differently so your not sure what to make of it… i think it would be easier if we discussed that force couple and what breaks it…

  51. Joe

    Djura,

    I agree that style is important but all hitters wind up in a similar position once their front foot plants – technique. Even someone like Gary Sheffield was in that position despite all that bat waving he did.

    As far as hands go, I agree that they are doing something, and that they are doing something different for various hitters. But, in and of themselves, they are not creating energy to the ball. They merely transferring the kinetic energy travelling up the body to the ball, as Dr. Phillip Adair so succinctly stated in his book.

    Josh Donaldson was asked by Mark DeRosa in that MLB segment what’s he thinking about. Well, I don’t think that Donaldson is thinking about anything when he’s hitting, at least as far as his mechanics go. Those are somewhere in his cerebellum and are activated when his eyes pick up the pitch and the various regions of his brain process it all. It’s all procedural memory at that point and he is not consciously aware of what his different body parts are doing. He has no time to hit 95+ fastballs if he’s thinking. He can think all he wants hitting off a tee or if someone asks him to tell them what he’s thinking. He was outlining the sequence of his body movements to DeRosa. Donaldson doesn’t do that in the batters box.

  52. Djura

    Joe I can’t agree with you more… There’s no way he is thinking what I’m suggesting… Remember I use to do this and forgot and had to go through a process to get it back… So I did it and had no idea what I did but now I know exactly I think what I did as a kid… So for me the first thing I did was buy a few books from coaches with good resumes and seriously I open both books and was shocked at what they were teaching and started asking my softball friends and others at the sports complex once my son played and I coached… Again I once thought what do I know I played street ball in queens and these people have resumes that mean something… Some have really really good resumes if you know what I mean….Again I was shocked but now I know how much this stuff is complicated….
    For me Josh does miss something but perhaps he doesn’t do it exactly how I would do it but it’s hard to tell but his answers makes me think he does but either fails to feel certain elements or just doesn’t want to tell the so called secret…

    There are more things I would like to explain but really we have to break up the hands into parts and follow those parts to the rest of the body and it would be really hard to do it typing over the phone…at the end in some weird way it doesn’t matter where or how power is made just as long as you can do it… Said another way I did it and didn’t know how I did it…. So at the start I was trying to say the hands are active and that its best to break up the hands into points of actions or force so we can better understand it… And it’s always better to understand it all as feel is great until you start thinking because when you try to go back to feel well you head is mess up than you ask someone and your in a forever slump… So feel is great because if you can feel it (for real) and you know it ( for real) you should be able to think your way back to the feel and you good… At least for the swing… Than work on timing as I know Joey is doing some big time stuff with that too that ought to be appreciated…It gets complicated because first it’s scientifically complicated, seeing it with your eyes is complicated and feeling it internally is complicated….

    What I love the best is when people say something about what it looks like many say… Nope you seeing it from the outside not the inside… Than when somebody says something about feel which is internal many people say nope it’s doing this or that while they are looking at the feel from the outside not the inside.The best thing I ever did was swing a bat besides a mirror… As for the hands… When I talk about the hands and being active… I’m saying the hands should do something and be active… Many people have there own ideas… Let me say it this way… The “hands” are very active and in control… And I’ll ask you… If your seeing a 95 mph fastball and a change up… Are you thinking get my body to do this or that from the ground up and get my shoulder in plane with this and get this to pop out and get my leg blocking this or that.. Or wait for the wind up and 1, 2 and let’s do some damage…

    I’m willing to tell you my thoughts and especially Joey since I know he will at some point make a video breaking it all down for the public… Again if I’m wrong my bad but I’m really confident… And I think Joey is already understanding my points even thought I’m all over the place…

    So the hands are important but only if you know how to move your body with your hands… So for example I tried to point out many MLB players more there joints and start holding parts of there hands or twisting and rotating there fingers… It’s suttle but it’s there… Watch the elbows and shoulders as they are getting there rub cage and pelvis to line up for good reason and than twist and other moves… Some moves are the same but done in multiple ways… Im actually teaching my son a few big time moves and telling him he can make them obvious… I’m scared to teach him everything because he’s 8 and I’m trying to figure out a good way to balance his body first… The fact is it’s the body works people that are cutting edge… I wish I can say it’s the math or physics people… But there is one bat ball collision model I think that wasn’t fully investigated…

    So to make it complicated… You said they are not creating energy to the ball…Is there energy in coordination… What if I coordinate more energy to the ball than you and figured out its best to do it with the hands per se…What if I can get my hands moving faster… Mass times acceleration… So getting bigger muscle or move it faster… There is power in either one. What if I was faster that gave me more time… Well more time gives me a better look ( like doing it in slow motion)…. Believe me it’s complicated… You interested…trust me if you don’t do it your self… It would be hard to get it… If you do it and think about it in terms of today’s baseball you get… I don’t know but I’m sure it’s all in the hands… Lets just look into some things and perhaps those crazy little muscle hands people who just insist that there little muscle fingers can hit 500 foot homeruns may actually know something A PART OF SOMETHING… My view is let’s derive it so we can see it everytime at every orientation…

    Growing up I use to bat like Donnie baseball, strawberry, conseco, Jack Clark, Will Clark and it wasn’t easy but I was able to hit the ball really hard in any one of those stance… But it aways took me awhile to figure it out… And I guess at some point I just said for get them I like doing this… This being what I speak off… The biggest problem is how we communicate everything and that some who know dont tell… But I never heard it said how I see it so I’m not sure why…i think Joey said something about people that know things about the swing and included me… I’m still shock at what some professionals say and that’s I know one or two things… I have no idea what I know or don’t know but at least believe me these fascia lines from the body works people puts this big ass picture together for me and all I can say is huh… Is this for real… While the ex pro teaches his kids for real money to hit ground balls… Is he for real… WTF is going on her.. Alright I’m cutting myself off from any comments for awile as I can feel Joey getting pissed at all my comments and I really have a busy week… I know I confused you more now but hopefully it’s right because I would feel bad if I wasn’t… Later and hope all is well…

    ~DM

  53. Joe

    Dhura,

    You said a lot.
    I guess this is the most poignant statement you made.

    “At the end in some weird way it doesn‚Äôt matter where or how power is made just as long as you can do it‚Ķ”

    But some methods are better than others since they confor to natural human movements. As Joey has said, there’s a difference between being “effective” and being “efficient.” Some guts do things wrong but still get results. I still go back to establishing standards or “absolutes” and having a hitter comply with them.

    You mentioned seeing yourself swing in a mirror. Use a video – it’s there right on your phone. Compare and contrast with other hitters. I’m out.

  54. Djura

    Joe this is getting pretty funny now… Look… You pointed to one of my quotes…I do appreciate your comments because I know your reading them but you need to take the filters off and as you said it gets complicated I’m telling you once you understand it it’s not complicated and I bet you can teach it better than I can since I’m assuming you have teaching experience…

    So big picture… If you allow you body to get to particular positions (I.e., set up) than you can control (coordinate) it all (I.e., not only within fascia lines or between fascia lines but other important elements in the swing… I disclosed enough that it ought to be enough to figure it out…

    So to add another phrase that it seems is different to include with “Hands” and “Style”…

    Connection… I would say it’s not enough to be connected… Said another way is getting connected is not what the pros do ( majority please don’t point Jeter)…. They get connected, they build the best conduits and than they speed up the swing… Remember power in the swing includes many things including but not limiting to speed, mass, balance (think posture) connection, channeling (not fascia per se think smoking especially what new smokers always do) and more… It’s possible you get everything but the speed thing… But I don’t think you get all of them but I’m not sure… It appears you get connection or at least the most known connection to most highly educated swing experts… But I’m telling you there is more in high level swing and I’m
    Saying if you summarize all my thoughts is it mostly controlled with the hands do the hands are not grown not are they passive or just there for the ride but if you don’t know how to do it you can’t possible understand and the funny thing is the people who know or insist that the hands are active just don’t have the tools to explain it…

    Again it’s all there for you but I’m
    Amazed on how nobody is asking questions but just go into defense mode and say just about anything to avoid going into the details… Again, if you understand ALL that goes into the swing….I was going to share that if you know how to set up…

    You can use the hands (not 100 percent but for most of it) to CONTROL it all and at the end what I’m not saying is that the ground isn’t a great source of power, that there isn’t a great source of power in connection, that there isn’t a great source of power in the elasticity or plasticity (fasica connected tissues) the body comprises, that there isn’t power in weight of the bat, that there isn’t a real source of power in the right physics ( knowing what the FACTS are), that there isn’t power in what smokers do (for the confused ones I just let them discover that as the rest of us I’m assuming understand but what should be noted is setting it up and LETTING it go not before but in reaction to)….

    What I’m saying and strongly believe is a scientific fact no different than the theory of gravity is knowing how and where all the powers in the swing are generated ( as Joe you point out by saying ” the hands don’t generate power” is extremely important….

    But the REAL POWER is in the coordination of everything with SPEED which could ONLY be done with THE HANDS ( only is strong but only in the sense of other ways make no sense)…. So the hands can control almost everything… OF COURSE we don’t have to coordinate it all so most experts point to speed and show how you can hit hard without speed per se and I think Joey you know what I’m saying … Again for those people just add speed and tell me which one you want… But more importantly those peopl don’t really know how to add the speed without ruining the swing…

    So Joe… You said ground up ( debatable too) and Kyle you said force couple and the hands just hang on… Those are half truths… You keep on saying things in view of those throw your hands people… I’m saying if your hands are not active than you don’t have real power and control…And yes the hands control most if it if not all, and once that last ( notice the term last) force couple goes, the swing is done and there is nothing you can do…but prior to that I’m thinking set up ( you CAN use your hands and LET everything fall in place, or you can use you body to set up or your muscle memory as soon as you hold the bat)… Than the best way is pinch the lead hand middle and ring, pinch the rear middle and ring than pinch the lead forefinger and than either pinch my lead forefinger… You should be connected from the correct finger to the armpit.. What there are other connections we should be know… Crazy….

    Alright I was either going to put it to rest or try one more time without getting too specific… Remember you see and feel within what you know… So for all those crazy it’s all in the hands ( not the throw you hands people)… The bad ass hitters who just simple say it’s all in the hands…lets translate… I can control it all from my hands because Joe as you failed to appreciate its not here rested power that is powerful but controlling it that is the shit… I don’t care if you car has a bad ass engine or awesome tired if you don’t know how to steer it… You can go in circles or just crash as it’s the hands that steer it and the feet that gives it power… At the end you have to know where your going and make it go there with speed… Notice how the great ones let the ball get so deep…

    Alright I guess those great hitters insisting that those crazy little muscle finger hands people are not crazy and they don’t have feeling issues ( ok that’s funny) but are just telling a half truth and just need more tools to explain themselves…

    Again I didn’t want to comment like this but just get into how the term hands ought to be 8 points of action and force but apparently nobody finds that interesting… That blows my mind but I know how defensive everyone in baseball is… By the way Joey taught me importance of fascia lines and notice how Joey is not disagreeing with me but trying to take it all in…

    Joey I bet you have this puzzled feeling and this gut feeling that on paper my teaching have no holes and sounds really reasonable…. And some of my comments would explain that I understand all the high level components… Fascia, internal workings, core ( you know not my abs), the smokers thing ( so damn big)…coordinating it all even the smokers thing and the core thing with my hands… I bet you look isn’t one of puzzle but that shit makes you smile… I’m telling you run with it and figure out the best way to teach it… Obviously I left out some things but the hardest thing is to ask the questions but you have a new angle on those crazy hands people ( not throw your hands) … This angle and the above teachings should be enough for you to fill in the blanks…

    By the way… As always your I would love your thoughts… At least let me know you understand the smoking reference….

    So to pisd Joey off and add more useless comments and have a summary

    1) Terms mean something and not only the old teaching cues… As Joey notes all the time… The science is getting out there… But there is one issue everything in the baseball culture has been defined, communicated and carry over from the times before the real science… So we ( baseball) has to figure something out and it is as now Joey and others are putting a stop to old cues that are misleading, half truths or just wrong… But there is more… How we explain things at least in an intellectual discussion…we ought to either redefine or come up with new terms to be in line with today’s science….

    2) there is real power in coordination and control

    3) it’s complicated…if you understand the above… The swing up, level, down is so bad especially if not understood but really just not needed… The fact is most what people talk about is from an observation perspective because the batter should never think about bat path, landing on stride, where there hands are… Etc… If things are out of sink the instructor sees theses as clues to set ups gone wrong or coordination gone wrong… Etc.. Golfers aways get there kids elite instructors… The baseball swing is more complicated than the golf swing… Either you know it all or go find someone who does… This is really bad in baseball but obviously Joey who gets paid for this can’t really say it…

    4) I know this will piss some or just make you smile…

    ITS ALL IN YOUR HANDS

    Well not ALL but seriously look at Thomas Myers book its all there…

    5) Now it’s all about timing!!!!

    Seriously I’m out and I will not respond to comments unless it’s related to the science of above or just here all questions…. Hope all is well and I know Joey hasn’t said much but I know what he knows except for what he left out in his videos and he accepts all my points by themselves so once he sees the coordination works… Well like I said… It’s all about the timing now…

    Later…

    By the way I pronounce my name as Judo but if you ever and I’m not say you will but for some reason you had to point to something… Please no names but perhaps a reference to kids playing stick ball would be neat… I’m sure there were lots of kids who just didn’t have organized ball ( in all sports) that may have excelled ( good swing, throw, shoot…etc… )

    Seriously I just wanted to talk about the arm lines and how they affect the swing and JUST work out why into the body…Unreal now I seem like… Well I’ll let you think of that…
    later.

    ~DM

  55. Joe

    Djura,

    Hit a pitched ball without counter rotating your shoulders, creating core torque, striding, planting your front foot, turning your pelvis, and making the appropriate shoulder and elbow adjustments. What force did you generate with your hands? I bet not much. Complete the aforementioned movements and observe what happens to the hands in the process. Are the hands initiating anything or creating the force necessary to hit a baseball with any degree of authority?

    You misquoted me. I said that the hands do not generate any “more” force to impact. They merely transfer the energy generated from the linear momentum of the stride and the ground reaction force created by the foot plant, which leads to the angular momentum of the body turning. The hands are pulled forward by the larger muscles of the legs, hips, and torso – a sequntial summation of movement. The hands DO NOT initiate the movements. The hands DO NOT create the energy into impact. I trust Phillip Adair, a distinguished Yale physics professor, on that.

    Your car analogy is incorrect. The hands certainly aren’t creating the force resulting in the speed of the car in steering the car. The hands don’t steer the bat to the ball ALL BY THEMSELVES either. Take an outside pitch for example: the hips, shoulders, and elbows are also involved in making the adjustments necessary to hit the ball on the outside pitch – that’s if you are hitting it middle to opposite field. If you try to pull and outside pitch, yes, the hands will engage in a hooking action. But what would be the result of that action – a groundball to the pull side?

    And to quote one of the most omniscient characters of all, Forrest Gump, “That’s all I have to say about that.”

  56. Djura

    Joe I understand everything your saying… Again you are debating something you heard before…. It’s the control that is powerful without that you can’t coordinate with speed… And again if your a noodle that those remarks don’t mean anything… And again with the pointing to s professor… Pointing to someone doesn’t prove anything… Also I already noted that if you don’t do it you can’t possible understand it… That is wh you should try to understand and ask questions but your debating what you think I’m saying or perhaps something that I should have communicated clearer.

    Again hear what I’m saying as an engineer, I love math and physics but it’s not in the physics… It’s with and please don’t laugh…. Wait… Wait…

    It’s with the body works people! And you know more power than them as they are at the cutting edge teachings and believe it or not the body works people will be shedding light on so many things besides the baseball swing…

    By the way… You still haven’t either read all or understood what I’m teachings… How do I know?

    Again it’s in the coordination and mine includes yours although that power you talk off may have leaks in it…
    I’m saying the hands ( 8 points of action and force) are active… Not hanging for dear life….

    I’m saying the REAL POWER is generated with the coordination of particulars… I think most educated swing experts know most of the particulars… By without the bigger picture and a different angle fail to see it all come together…

    To start speed is power as its in the damn physics but many refer to speed in combination with no connection as I’m saying speed in connection… Connection is some super thing and never see how other things can affect it in a positive way… Smoking thing… Enough said…

    Remember live said a lot and still have a few things but I’m not playing devils advocate or messing with you… The fact is I spent a lot of time trying to explain it and I know your not spending the time understand it… No worries…

    At some point you will understand I’m not the throw your hands person or anything else you heard before I’m sure of that… Because your remarks are mostly going along with what I’m saying and at some point you will realize that you missed my points and than hopefully you will read up on the arm lines what I wanted to talk about and than read my comments in view of that and you will have that puzzled look, than an ahhhhh moment and a smile… The smile because you would know that I hung in there and I didn’t have too….

    Hope all is well.

    ~DM

  57. Djura

    Joe… By the way I can tear apart almost everything you just said… I can take it one quote at a time and just go off on it… Seriously from many angles and I really mean BIG TIME but I’m not because I’m not here for that although I do think that if I just open a BIG can on every point that could possibly shed some REAL light on how complicated the swing is because those points are really good ones and not easily seen for everyone.. But it’s not really the physics because the physics model was within a particular frame and I’m stepping out of that frame. Well I’m trying to step out of that frame and you keep on pulling me in… But blowing up those points would show that even those brilliant people failed to model it correctly… But it’s because they didn’t see it right to model it right meaning they modeled it right from there point of view… Again try to understand what I’m saying outside this frame and I’m pretty sure it starts with the arm fascia lines and then we can talk some deep front line which would help with tail bone and smoking references…. Than we have the mass part of the power your referencing but let’s not stop there… Let’s add the velocity part to the swing and you will see how it acts like a multiplier… And than we can figure out the coordination and puff your mind will explode…. But noooooo we can’t do that… That again blows my mind…. The ones who don’t see it want to debate and the ones who understand what I’m saying don’t know what to say because without testing it for themselves they CANT on paper reject it… Come on I know there are some big time swing experts out there…. Where are you and don’t you want this conversion… I know Joey is busy but what about the rest of you… Don’t you find my teachings interesting at the least…

    Again Joe I’m not here to fight with you as I respect and appreciate everything you said… I just want to talk beyond the physics with the few who interested on this angle… This angle might not interest you and that’s cool…And again, I do these things and I understand your point…all I ask is try it and ask questions if you have any. If you disagree that’s cool too but not from your perspective I’d rather discuss it in a bigger picture if that makes sense…I dont think that is asking much since we are both on a blog regarding the baseball swing… Again remember I understand your point and you don’t understand my point…

    For me it’s hard to see because we don’t really have a good way of explaining it but I think coordination with speed makes sense…but what are meant by coordinated and speed…

    Joey, I know you think what I’m saying is reasonable or plausible…. Can you at least inject that so perhaps all the crazy anti hands people can take a double take and just understand I’m not saying what they think and that ought to be appreciated or else they will miss some points. I wanted to talk arm lines and hands and just try to redefine how we see ” hands” and start the process of getting fascia and all the different angles I think are important in revealing some key aspects of the swing…

    By the way I would stop anytime you think is appropriate… It’s your blog and I’m just a guest… I know the comments are long but don’t know how else to explain it… It’s like I think it’s hard to see the little points without the big picture AND vice versa… I feel everyone is stuck in the middle….

    Also I did express a lot of it already…

    ~DM

  58. Djura

    You see Joe you have to realize you don’t understand my points right or wrong…I looked at a mirror because I can break it down really slow and look at what im feeling in real time…And figure out all those micro movements… I took a whiffle bat, a normal bat and a weighted bat so i can consider all the different weights as all 3 can help make the connections….. But most important… I had to find that feel…Remember I also have a deep understanding of it all too.. Once I did that… Than that’s it…I have to know what I’m feeling and seeing… The only premise that could be faulty is my swing was really awesome but not the swing… It ember what I did and doing it at my size…But ive tried everything I ever read or heard ( including what your saying only) and still my swing variation stands….Again one swing and a plurality of acceptable variations within the swing principles… The big one being coordination of everything important with speed as I put it…

    Does anybody else find this interesting or have questions… This should just be like a round table where sound notions are examined and faulty reasonings are thrown out…

    ~DM

  59. Joe

    Djura,

    I’m not not “debating.” Rather I’m referencing Phillip Adair’s science. To refute his conclusions would be like saying that an apple that falls from a tree does not do so because of gravity. Yes, it is “coordination,” as you say. I don’t disagree. It is the “coordination” of the various actions I cited in my previous post.

    But I don’t think that you could rip apart what I said because my statements are rooted in science and is something that the consensus of contemporary hitting instructors would agree with.

    I guess the best way to resolve this is for you to post a swing that represents your swing model. Otherwise, we are just dealing in a semantic chess match. And, by the way, whatever we say, you still have to get out there and hit.

  60. Djura

    Joe the funny thing is I really don’t have to prove anything…. The funny thing is it’s so damn easy if you understand… If you understand what I’m saying all you have to do is try it… You say prove it with science… ARE YOU SERIOUS! I was trying to, do you remember someone talking about how the hands have 8 points of action… I just wished everyone actually listens to Joey and said oh yea Djura I heard Joey talking about those … Those arm fascia lines .. Yea that makes sense… Let’s get deeper into those ” so called arm lines” those lines are fasinating….And I thought starting there and working our way throughout the body starting at our hands to the feet leveraging and using the ground for a source of power to the deep core for connecting us, to the scalene and daiphram and everything else….

    But what was I thinking… I said it before… You can’t talk politics, religion and baseball… Go figure..The fact is Joe it’s so easy I did it when I was 7…. And most kids would until somebody puts nonsense in there head. ….And the nonsense isn’t just crazy cues but really suttle terms or ideas… For example Just saying swing up, down or level will frame the swing a certain way that may make you never see it.. Yes I said all 3 if you havnt notice… And than add all the other cues and sayings.. In my opinion the batter would just start doing it if they just had trail and error… But they don’t because somebody put something in there heads… And remember what I’m saying… So saying the power is from the ground up can mess them up…telling them to stride forward can mess them up… Telling them to put there hands up can do it.. It can be anything if you don’t have the proper CONTEXT…

    And I’m not ripping you apart.. Well I am getting frustrated…I’m trying to say you have a great swing and I like what and where your going with it… Here let’s try ADDING ( coordinating a few more things to it)…. It’s so easy if you just drop your defense and attack thing… Seriously Joe I guess we just respectfully disagree…

    I hope someone finds value in what I was saying….Oh well…

    Again notice what is being said and what is not being said… I’m out!!!

    ~DM

  61. Djura

    It’s so damn easy once understood… The difficulty and I do mean difficult is stepping out of your box to see it… Remember… I
    Saying that 1 nonsensical cue or idea will frame it in your head where you will never get it… It’s like if I told you to chop down a thousand trees using an ax… When you get to the last tree you say… Ok Djura where do you want this tree to fall… But if I told you that you can only use the wrong side… Well I’m sure you’ll be the best at doing it the wrong way…

    Again… It’s not complicated and I’m not playing the word game or devils advocate… I’m telling you it’s all here and clearly different….

    I said the hands are active not just along for the ride…so you can coordinate what smokers do with your hands… You can coordinate that perfect conduit with your damn hands… You can make your swing yes your swing faster….You can coordinate the true and very best motion along the curved bat path and all you have to do is hit the mouse trap to get the centripetal and tangential forces working the right way if you know how to grip the handle and know what pressures to apply… You can add lag with your hands too… The list goes on….

    And yes you can slap at the ball with you hands… You can get disconnected with you hands… You can caste… You can drag the bat…. You can upper cut with your hands… You can chop at the ball with the bat head going downward through the ball to get meaningless backspin on the ball with your hands…you get the point…. I’m telling you it’s all in your hands… Those swings and mine which coordinates it all… And it’s so easy but it’s like that double picture… Once you see the background picture it’s like you can’t not see it no matter how hard you try… And for me AGAIN I WAS shocked at what people are teaching… I really use to get people mad because I didn’t say… I’m not sure about that or I just do it another way… I would say why the hell would you do it that way… What are you thinking..I don’t do it that way but I would have never thought of doing it that way… Than I kept on hearing what people ate teaching and How defensive people get..so I’m not shocked anymore… It’s so damn easy and once you figure it out… Just take a few dry swings using different swings and you’ll know why I was shocked at how other people swing and how they teach it.. Remember I once tried to teach it and didn’t really have a way to communicate it… And that’s because I didn’t know it I felt it…. And until you feel it you will insist that feel is not real… Sorry Joey! So I still knew what not to say but also didn’t know what to say… And 3 years later I’m confused to the push back…

    Either way… It’s so easy… So easy… Really easy… Ok now I’m being funny… And I gave it all to you… And I don’t have to prove it… I’m not here for that… And I would prove it but it’s easy I can walk you through it but at least you have to try and ask questions…. And I’m saying it’s easy…. I think the hardest thing is to set it up and use your hands to move your body…. I had a squish the bug kid always move his rear leg….

    Muscle memory is so bad… That’s another thing that is so bad… Muscle memory… It ruins your posture… If you know how to do it than you don’t need muscle memory… And if your see it up in auto than you really don’t need it and again it ruins your posture which makes you weaker and your reflexes slower…

    Later and apparently I and maybe you may have a little OCD… I’m out…

    ~DM

  62. Djura

    Believe me Joe it’s not in the physics… For the ones who looked at different angles when they hear me say

    (1)Let’s look into what Myers taught us and let’s give the ” it’s all in the hands” crazy folk the tools to explain themselves….

    Believe me… Phrasing it and saying it within how I framed it hits hard…And makes them stop and think and the more they think the less comfort they feel… Because it is extremely reasonable… So much it hits hard…so hard that most likly are thinking :

    Seriously, F*** me, Shit, are you kidding me, damn it, ahhhhh, thanks a lot (sarcastic) saying it that way FORCES me to look into it, interesting, huh, promising, WHY, I was good and content why start this crap again funny name person…. Etc…

    What they don’t think is I’m wrong snd no further investigation is needed… He is absolutely wrong… Believe me no body who knows more than the physics thinks this…and by the way your physics is misunderstood so it’s not the physics but physics in context… Just like when people say it’s that the facts is how you present the facts….

    Other points ought to have resonated really hard…

    (2) Speed and coordination… Should have made you stop and think…this should put speed in the RIGHT context…

    (3)What smokers do… And controlling this with you hands… Together this should have made you stop and say…seriously… Why are you OPENING this door…unless your thinking what do smokers do besides smoke… Which would be funny…

    (4)I do these things… When considered with what I’m saying and taking it all in and realizing I DO know some things so my eyes are not lying to me and I do have scientific understanding… I do these things means so much more… Knowing that 99.9 percent of people fail to grasp the real principles of the swing….sometimes makes this statement sound like nothing… But realize if there is some secret… It would seem like somebody who does it and can explain it would be the one who has the secret…

    (5) controlling the conduit with my hands… This ought to make you stop really hard as some are debating if we just start with the conduit or wait and at what time as I’m saying set the conduit and the pinch takes care of it… So controlling the conduit with my hands ought to freak you out… Seriously…

    For the ones who looked into the swing beyond physics and know the more you know the more questions we have… They are taking a pause after reading those statements with my context…But baseball is funny, so many people are content… Because if you chased this rabbit before it’s not easy it’s really hard, it consumes you and it get tiresome, personal and old really fast…

    But trust me, I do these things and it’s so easy… I’m just trying to take away all those damn cues in your head… And believe me the swing is easy it’s the muscle memory that messes it all up…

    Joey you said that perhaps I may have some new angles to add to some… I don’t know what do you think… When I said the above points… So at least the first point.. Let’s give those “it’s all in the hands” crazy people the tools to explain themselves… When you read that what did you think… Perhaps interesting… Or huh said that way throws me off… I may have to revisit some thoughts in view of Thomas Myers…. .etc… I’m
    95% sure it wasn’t… He knows nothing and is so wrong…

    Well I’m sure whatever you thought you added… I think Djura has OCD… I’m starting to think that too… Either way so I know I’m not wasting my time Sharing the first thing you thought of when reading my first point would be appreciated. Again if I’m wrong I’m truly sorry to waste your time….

    Hope all is well…

    ~DM

  63. Joe

    Djura,

    This is too funny. I don’t disagree with you about the hands doing something significant – applying pressure to the bat – and the fascial lines. I am not saying that the hands don’t just sit there, merely holding the bat. Yes, I agree that the hands play a critical role in enabling a hitter to get the bat on pitch plane. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THE HANDS INITIATE THE SWING. That’s it.

  64. Joe

    Djura,

    I forgot your statement that prompted my last post: “I‚Äôm telling you it‚Äôs all in your hands‚Ķ.” Well, it’s not.

  65. Djura

    Joe I know… It is funny… The funny thing is we both think this is funny based on different angles and looking at the swing from what it appears like the same angle we both have different conclusions… But as you know, I too DONT think it’s all in the hands… The hands are no different than any other part… Just a part of a system… But the hands (the 8 points of action) or perhaps this resonates better, the myofascia arm lines, are critical for MORE than channeling (as usually understood) … Notice the emphasis on more… For example, joeys bottom 3… Pretty damn awesome if you didn’t do that before or didn’t recognize you did it….. AND I’m saying don’t stop there as there are MORE things just like that and even different ( i.e., controlling) that those MYOFASCIA ARM LINES can and will do if you Are set up for it…. And I believe you when you say you believe it’s not all in the hands, if I didn’t understand what I was saying or if I didnt swing this way…and was indoctrinated in the teachings of baseball prior to let’s say 2010… I too would believe what you believe… Shit you seem like your a lot smarter than me… If I was taught all the nonsense I would mostly swing down and put my foot down way early so your perspective is appreciated…. But yes BUT… I didn’t get taught by the 80’s how to swing (It’s funny because I think we both agree that we both think we can just forget what everybody was preaching in the 80’s)(FUNNY, the lost decade of baseball instructions)… So since I wasn’t indoctrinated in the nonsense and more importantly I do this… Is why I don’t believe in hitting ground balls or why I’m asking you to understand it and try it… Because I don’t believe but I know how that experience would impact your beliefs… But at the end I also know that most cultures (ways of thinking) change are usually from within… So I thought perhaps going into the fascia lines would shed some light on how educated hands are no more than educated myofascia arm lines… And if you looked into fascia lines you appreciate how the arm lines reach out to just about everything in the body that includes your muscles, organs and everything in between…

    So yes it’s not all in your hands… That’s nonsense as the swing is a system…. The fact is it’s all in what you do, known or unknown… And again I do these things and can and would never do it your way….I did these things when I didn’t know what I was doing and now I do these things knowing how to do it… And in view of what is generally known, taught and how discussions usually end… I understand why it’s so hard and complicated… Because to start it is complicated than you add all the other nonsense it’s amazing anybody could do it… Because it seems like no kid can hit a ball without even 1 thing being said… No kids can just play without adults hovering behind them… No kids can just start batting like all there stars and just try different things… So Joe i believe you when you say that you believe it’s not in your hands and notice I also know why you believe what you believe… And no matter how contradictory it may sound but to give a shout out to one of my softball friends who got his ass handed to him and said to me…

    Djura you have to believe me it’s all in you hands… I Know it sounds crazy but really just get in there and use your hands….

    I was puzzled as I never heard that but Joe what’s funny I took a bat and swing it and for all the other nonsense I said after one swing… Hell no!!!! And for that swing I said your crazy ass got something but what makes you crazy is not what you said but the fact is do you think those guys would believe me at least you played college, I played in the streets….he said seriously it’s in you hands I’m not crazy….

    Let me translate… Just get in there (set up) and use your hands (actively engage your body for power by controling and coordinating your big muscles, elasticity, your deep core muscles, your breathing muscles, the ground, the bat … Etc…

    So no crazy softball friend… You not crazy… It’s pretty damn hard to explain something when you don’t have the tools… What is crazy is when you have the tools but for some reason you say nope… Good try but no no no… And I say but you didn’t even try it or take the time to understand it… No… No… No…. Joe… I have to respectfully disagree… This not that is funny…

    I wanted to talk about the arm fascia lines and than grip of course… There are 8 points of action and we can break each of them down to all there functions and uses… Than we could have revisit both of our thoughts but apparently your certain that the hands ( all 8 points) would not initiate the swing…

    I’m pretty sure Joey will shed some light on the arm lines and to start the complexity and perhaps just functions of each one and how the hands are complex structures that need to be appreciated by more that those crazy people…

    I guess I really have no more no say Joe… Joe I know doing this taught me some things and I’m sorry we don’t agree… Hope all is well….and Joey I hope this discussion was at least interesting…Seriously Joey… Any comment would be appreciated… Even… Djura you crazy! Would work… Later and keep doing what you do and I’ll try my best to stay on point as long as your good with it…

    ~DM

  66. Djura

    Shit… It depends what you mean by initiate and at what point of the swing you decide initiation starts…. I know again with definitions and perspectives…

    How bout this perspective I do these things…

    So if I set up according to the principles of THE SWING as I mentioned above… And I pinch the middle and ring figure in particular stance… That pinch would lift my lead foot off the ground and add lag to something some slice of the swing… Again… I’m not here saying your wrong or why do you believe I this or that… I’m saying I do these things and I wouldn’t change it with anything else…HERE TRY IT…. It’s pretty neat…. Oh you don’t want to… Ok cool…

    ~DM

  67. Djura

    Joe, look into the arm fascia lines by Thomas Myers but there is great articles that discuss the arm lines…It can get really complicated and confusing so you might just want to start with a general article discussing fascia lines and work your way to the arm lines…Hope all is well. Later….

    ~DM

  68. Djura

    Joe… Did you look into those points of interest….

    By the way… If Josh did one thing ( beside work out his forearms) he wouldn’t have to think about his shoulders and work his top hand without tipping the bat… It appears he’s not using both hands to there maximum potential… So I agree that the interviewer is only pulling a small part of his rubber band but I call Josh’s rubber bands (notice the plurality) and raise him pulling all of the rubber band he’s referring too and adding some more rubber bands to his swing…

    Well… Obviously everybody pulls all there rubber band l… So said anouther way… I think pulling all the rubber bands that make sense and coordinate them and time them to release at about ( notice the about) the same time…

    For those people who say you can move your hands/ Fingers fast enough… First your looking at it the wrong way… So if you pinch things ready to fire than your playing guitar… Also if your pinches are set up to go in an order… Than its a matter of practicing that song…

    The most important thing is understanding lag and resistance ( all resistance especially upper body) … So for example if you hold something that wants to fire you don’t have to do it to fire it… So pinching is really just engaging it…Also resistance may dissipate or channel that energy else where… So for all those ground up people…. Ahhhh no! First the body leverages the ground and the bat and ITSELF… Joey taught this way back and had some great excerises to get this… But there are other twisting things going on…

    Also please dont let gravity do the work… Work with not against gravity but don’t let gravity do it… Again if you think of a pinch… It usually is so faint for some they don’t even know they do it.. But if get the feel for it which must be taught… Than you can start resisting more elements and than pinching them to engage them with speed…This is the difference of hitting hard to hitting hard at all locations… And to not worry about getting fooled… You do get a little more power but we are not taking about crazy extra power… But more power means more time and the fact you have total control means you have more time to see the ball a foot deeper which doesn’t seem like a lot but it is.

    So… Lag…and resistance is key and of course understand how to relate them to the arm lines…

    The fact is doing what I’m saying makes it easy to see it… Not doing it… I would never of thought to look into it… And especially given the typical teachings… Good luck…

    ~DM

  69. Joe

    Djura,

    Not disputing that the hands are active and NOT passive. They are applying pressure to HELP initiate the swing and help a hitter get on pitch plane. My contention is that they do not do everything themselves – as the “throw your hands people” teach. I’m a proverbial kinetic chain guy. But I understand the my facial connection between the hands and the core described by Thomas Meyers. I’m just too leery of the “handsy” approach. As Donaldson said, “I’m not thinking about my hands.”

  70. Djura

    Joe I can’t agree with you more… Many throw your hands people really don’t know what they are saying…But you know as most who know as much as we speak of that 99.5 percent don’t know it and it’s the 0.5 people who have interesting discussions… I use to think that was weird but I really do think that number is right…

    Remember I never heard many of these cues until my son played tball and I coached… My first day coaching was shocking… I’m hearing all these cues that made no sense to me…and some of these people had nice resumes… I really just thought I was dead wrong… It took me awhile to figure out that these people don’t know what there saying and I too had issues… I can grab a bat and know what cue was wrong or at least not absolute but I still didn’t know how to explain what I’m doing… That took me awhile to grasp … I can do something but not explain it well… Well read my comments… I guess I still can’t explain it..but I know it now…

    What’s funny is if I say the hands are active many throw me in with those people…again I heard that cue 20 years afterwards…

    Just remember if you say from the ground up than your saying the hands are the last part of that chain.. Now there are multiple points in the hand… So that means all those points are last and there isn’t anything above the ground working….All im saying is its possible that ground up idea is confining one to that Chain and no other… again what I’m experiencing is hearing cues and teachings that I would have never thought off and at the same instance apparently I’m swinging the bat in a way that seems to be from MARS…All I can say is I understand your thoughts and I can swing a bat just like you and others teach… But I do these things that I’m trying to explain…. Joey had a new video on the scientific method which was great but I told Joey a long time ago that the theory of gravity is funny…Its a theory but my certainty in it is absolute… Same with what I’m expressing… The problem is, what I’m saying is complicated… But NOT for me as it was the only way I ever did it until I heard others or I had to teach it…That’s the hard part for me… It’s really easy and I don’t know where I’m losing people… That is why I try to ask questions about what you think so I know where your coming from…however this is baseball and everybody plays devils advocate…

    And nobody ask questions??? Funny…

    Either way if your interested in my lead hand pinch I’ll always try my best to explain it as I see it…

    For me there are some key points to the whole thing…

    Back foot screwing in the ground…
    Slotting the back elbow
    Having a short lead arm lever at some point
    Rotating of the arms
    Having a really nice hinge
    Lead arm connection to your core
    Armpit pinching
    Free falling
    Landing

    Those are for the most part widely understood and Joey does a great job with those things

    Where it gets too a gray area seems to be with

    Fascia
    Finger pressures
    Top hand action
    Bottom hand action
    Bottom and top hand torques
    Feet (proper grip with the feet)
    Coordination of chains ( notice the plurality)
    Setting movements for only one possible outcome
    Speed
    Grip
    breathing
    Alignments and the fake alignments
    Automatic mode
    All the force couples
    The little connections ( meaning there are little connections not only the ground up one most look at…
    The two swings ( just like hitting a ball overhead and most would go to the ball and than cut it down) if your my age and older I’ll be surprised if you have not done this..

    And I think the mountain top have two ideas

    How to release the bat head…and can you feel it?

    Notice… Feel it! It’s like when you know it than you can see it and you notice the ones who can’t see it… And you know that in order to see it they have to know what there looking at… Again… Can you feel it… Because if you could you wouldn’t think about how to release it… You think… Let’s catch the ball here or there… It’s like catching the ball and compressing it….

    So just for my curiosity…

    How do you think the bat head gets released?

    Hope all is well.

    ~DM

  71. Djura

    I guess I should have put the two swings part as one of the mountain top ideas…

    By the way you said the body pulls the swing… Which swing were you talking about? The first one or the second one ?

    Alright enough of that… Hope all is well. Later..

    ~DM

  72. Djura

    Joe… Take your hands and have them face each other…. And push against each other where they seem equal… As you do this than take your left hand and try to slide it down fast… If you break that couple… You should see where both hands go… Did you push that way or the other way or did you just break the couple and have them go where ever they were going…also can you break it with your left and stay the course.. Yes… Clean you break it with the right and stay the course… He’ll know you can’t… I’m not going to bust out the physics but you can’t… Also doing it with the left does more things as your left also makes the right do things… Again it’s all in your grip and particular pressures…

    When you see Bonds pump his hands… I see the loading of the backswing and the SETTING of the forward swing… Two swings just like the to it and cut it over hand!thing….When Bonds hands come back up…. He’s already had his top hand through except it’s being held back and in a different orientation… Just a mouse trap that needs to be set off…I wish I had 3 right hands…

    So the hands are holding the bat… So I would start there and work my way down to the forearms and shoulders and tspine and so on… Get connected… If you can use the pinch correctly than just doing that works well and you’ll have issues releasing it and just need to be mindful of keeping you back side up… If you do it the other at around… You’ll never have it..ever… You can because it’s no longer there…

    Also… While your at it… When You get your feet grounded I would point my toes up and try to feel the ground… Try to grip it… Again perhaps maybe I’m not explaining it correctly but either way you haven’t asked me any questions..,

    Joe… Your wrong and it’s because you don’t see it.. And Its because your confined to what you know…Let that sink in… Be sure it does… Perhaps you’ll actually try what I’m saying…Believe me id rather say you right. Thanks…

    But I know you havnt tried what I’m saying… I’m not trying this to be a punk… But… Your saying its this and that.. And I know you have not tried this…,But have you every heard anyone express it this way…and say… I do these things..

    By the way… Don’t take the breath thing as nothing… That helps too…I’ve said a lot… I don’t think I’ll get into the grip and how to set it all up…Just realize there are two swings so two major pulls and two major pushes… One very direct push, the lead pinch… Many indirect…You have to load many things and at specific times just like when Joey said you do the bottom 3 after the lead foot is up… It is complicated but not for me…

    By the way… I said the right physics… I’m not naming names but many of those brilliant People had awesome math and solved many different things…But they didn’t have the right model… They assumed things are 0 or gravity this or that… Those models were solved… And there right for those models…Not mine… I didn’t have to assume anything as I DO THESE THINGS…, that is my sciencetific method… But out of curiosity I checked the math and yes… If you don’t assume this or that the answers look different… But not to me as I do these things…so why did I check the math… Because I’m surprasied too…

    Alright I think I’m done with this pinch, setting and coordination thing… No point repeating myself and having nobody even try to do what I’m saying or even ask questions…I was trying to talk about the arm lines and setting up all those lines in a coordinated way where they all fall one at a time… And if we know there are two swings than we would have had to get SUPER specific… That would have really challenged all of us…we are talking about all the micro moves…Anyway… I’m done with this and I’m sure Joey doesn’t like me commenting this much…

    I’m more concerned with timing, eye training and balancing our postures…

    Later Joe and good luck if your tring this…

    And Joey I’ll drop this pinch thing… I kind of feel like a stalker trying to sell this pinch… I guess it’s best to drop it…

    Later…

    ~DM

    • Joey Myers

      Djura, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts here…don’t take my lack of response as me not liking your commenting. I’m very limited on my time. All I’m saying is take these concrete “pinch” theories and run them through a swing experiment.

  73. Joe

    Djura,

    I don’t think I’m wrong. But, I’m out of this discussion. I asked you to post a video of what you mean but you haven’t done so. It’s hard for me to parse the plethora of words you send in the tomes that you post. Maybe you’re the reincarnation of Leo Tolstoy (“War and Peace”) who came back as a troll. Sorry, I didn’t intend to make this a caustic response. Guess I have been watching too much the presidential race. All that I know that if this is your diurnal message to the players you coach, you’re likely to land them in the locked ward at Bellevue.

  74. Djura

    Joey

    I know… I appreciate you thoughts too… I guess I could actually do the experiment but I would be shocked if what I’m expressing was not better…This is really complicated too so feedback is difficult…I get it… I just don’t understand if what I’m saying is understood… That is why I go off because I don’t know how to explain something that is really complicated… Especially when I don’t know where everyone is coming from…The only thing I can do is ask questions… So for example releasing the bat head… This is key to the whole pinching thing…How bout the two swings… Just like keeping the bat vertical and swinging down.. You would go to ball and cut it down… But if looking at that swing from a distance you may think it’s one swing…Sort off…I just don’t know where most are coming from….

    Joe

    I don’t want to record myself and as I said Bonds and others are doing it… What would a swing of mine do… It would be a video of my grip and the specifics as the specific pressures are key to locking those points in… Also the torquing and pinch….

    At the End Joe I was trying to say HANDS is a broad term let’s break them down along arm fascia lines and see what each ones does… So you would see how those parts work and how engaging them is helpful… So just showing you it would not be what I would ever do as understanding it would be where I would go…

    your done with this discussion… Ok…But this was never a discussion… Realize that…

    And you think your right… Yes you do think your right…You keep on thinking as Im thinking it’s getting funny because I’ve said it before and I’ll repeat it once again… I do these things…. And you think your right.. And you either don’t understand what I’m saying or understand it and didn’t give it a try…Awesome!!!

    Remember there are two swings so think about how that affects the idea of using the lead hand… Two swings… And you should have a tight coil. Really tight…So just in case you know something but don’t want to express it… If there are two swings perhaps what I’m doing should not be viewed in a vaccum… I’ll stop there since there’s no reason to go into the details when know body is interested in them as I see it… No worries…im just trying to talk about something and your not interested… It’s all good… Thanks for putting up with me… Later and hope all is well…

    ~DM

  75. Djura

    So Joey if we ever talked about all the fascia lines we can dig into Bonds swing and perhaps see things that might not ever occurred to both of us… So for example I know you like the hunched position many batters get into… I too love that and I think that kind of flexing your tspine and holding it as best you can included using a point of action in what perhaps was once only called hands ? is a good idea…

    And how that flexion affects everything even the order of things ( think coordination so not well if you do that than that makes it harder for this) and if the pinch effects things and if it’s possible to reorient yourself or even if reorienting yourself just happens given the forces acting on the body… Again how the arm lines and the end of those lines can just affect, falcilitate or contribute to any of this if at all…

    And work our way all around the swing… Again perhaps not for everyone…who knows…but that was my motivation to changes the boxes we including myself that we all think in and thy to see it all… Because once I see all those angles I’ll gladly take our physics and model it…Unless i did these things than I’m an idiot and just swing a bat and say… Yes… No… Yes… No… I know I should just do the experiment and just swinging a bat is not good enough… Anyway… I know your interested… Later…

    ~DM